Do you believe in an afterlife?

[ionlycopenow]

I'm sorry, brocel, I didn't mean to terrify you.

May you find peace.



"Experience" is in actuality a very vague and broad concept. I suppose you could define it as some minimum collection of discrete neuro-chemical processes, but that's a very narrow, scientific definition that doesn't encompass the breadth of episodic, macroscale interactions that we generally mean when we use the term. In other words it's not a practically useful definition.

When I say "experience" it includes things like large scale quantities of sensory data that accumulate in a familiar or novel pattern from our interactions with the environment and/or other people. Things like "going outdoor rock climbing with your friends for the first time." That's an experience - a unique one in this case (since it's your first time). However, experience in the way I use it also includes internal mental states like your daydreaming episodes. Sure, there are no external sensory stimuli that form (or reform) your neural nets, and most people would not qualify your own delusional fantasies as "experiences." However, they are internal cognitive mental states that are idiosyncratic and measurable, so in some sense, yes, your daydreams are "real."

In this regard it becomes meaningful to classify your internal brain states as "experiences." I haven't checked the literature lately, but I would conjecture to say that the simple activity of daydreaming can have an impact on dendritic growth and shape your neural networks similar to how "normal" experiences do. It would be interesting research, and the results could have useful and practical consequences (e.g., daydreaming on your bus ride to your dreaded destination, like work, may help slowly restructure your brain to make that work more bearable over time). It may even justify getting "lost" in virtual worlds when VR technology becomes more commonplace.

What would it take for you to dismiss this theory as implausible? What kind of advancements in neurological study?

It's not that I've never heard of it, it's just terrifying to hear it might happen

But it's just as possible that nothingness is what happens as well, so that is comforting at least

Your perception of time is not the same thing as the actual, measurable passage of time. Your own dreams can testify to this. You can take psychedelics and other mind-altering drugs to greatly alter your perception of time. That doesn't suddenly create a massive influx of energy.

Some dreams, I can tell it's only been a few hours. Others it feels much longer.

If your theory is correct I hope it's one of those dreams where real world "time" matches my dream time

I can feel my nerves getting shot just thinking about this, it's a never ending cycle same with anxiety in general .

To think that if you're correct, that people who die horribly be it murder or rape or war or something that they may be in that state of shock forever

..Or maybe it really is just back to "nothingness" when you die.

 

[Caesercel]

Your perception of time is not the same thing as the actual, measurable passage of time. Your own dreams can testify to this. You can take psychedelics and other mind-altering drugs to greatly alter your perception of time. That doesn't suddenly create a massive influx of energy.

Neurochemical process in the brain change when we dream or take drugs. Drugs are even specifically build for this purpose. These changes also bring about shift in exchange of biochemical energy.( All this leads to said shift in subjective perception). The second law of thermodynamics dictates that no such shift is free from waste. It would be impossible to continue this process for eternity . Unless it is externally, physically sustained for eternity

Another thing is, these experiences are also different in other ways from conscious state. So how we subjectively perceive time in them cannot be used as a comparison.(For ex- We experience no time passing in deep dreamless sleep. But we don't experience anything else as well. So its useless.). But that's just a minor addendum to the greater issue.

I can tell you this with absolute certainity. Give me a man who is experiencing eternity in his dying moments. And I will solve the world energy problem once and for all.

 

[based_meme]

What would it take for you to dismiss this theory as implausible? What kind of advancements in neurological study?

I have my own experimental ideas, none of which are ethical. I would be tried in the Hague for crimes against humanity, if I conducted them.

It's difficult to speculate on what kind of developments are necessary to make discoveries that have yet to be discovered. I would think that one of the first things we would need to do is to improve brain scanning and mapping technology. Current techniques are too cumbersome. Then we would need to develop ways of accurately translating analogue neural data into digital data without loss of information and fidelity. Currently this is being researched, but it's far from perfect.

When I can "talk" to my computer and tell it to do exactly what I need it to do just by thinking, I believe we would be in a good place to start researching brains on the moments prior, at, and after death.

 

[ionlycopenow]

Neurochemical process in the brain change when we dream or take drugs. Drugs are even specifically build for this purpose. These changes also bring about shift in exchange of biochemical energy.( All this leads to said shift in subjective perception). The second law of thermodynamics dictates that no such shift is free from waste. It would be impossible to continue this process for eternity . Unless it is externally, physically sustained for eternity

Another thing is, these experiences are also different in other ways from conscious state. So how we subjectively perceive time in them cannot be used as a comparison.(For ex- We experience no time passing in deep dreamless sleep. But we don't experience anything else as well. So its useless.). But that's just a minor addendum to the greater issue.

I can tell you this with absolute certainity. Give me a man who is experiencing eternity in his dying moments. And I will solve the world energy problem once and for all.

You could be right
But the main concern here is while yes it's impossible to do it for eternity in our world, in that state, it is eternity to you. Even if your cells all finally die off, you are still "eternally" sleeping to where your consciousness never "ends"

I'm not a scientist though so I don't know.


But if not then it's really a roll of the die, either eternal bliss or "eternal" pain

Most ndes are described as similar to as if you're on Xanax, all worries and troubles gone, no sense of danger or difficulty, just peace. It varies alot though. Some describe it as literal heaven, they see all their dead relatives and friends there contempt and happy.

I wouldn't mind that eternity at all, but others, describe seeing literal demons or being in pain. That is truly immensely terrifying and the reason I'm scared to rope

Also interesting to suggest that it's possible if this is true, whatever you believe about death may be what happens. So, those bombers who died blowing people up really do get their 72 virgins in heaven.

I have my own experimental ideas, none of which are ethical. I would be tried in the Hague for crimes against humanity, if I conducted them.

It's difficult to speculate on what kind of developments are necessary to make discoveries that have yet to be discovered. I would think that one of the first things we would need to do is to improve brain scanning and mapping technology. Current techniques are too cumbersome. Then we would need to develop ways of accurately translating analogue neural data into digital data without loss of information and fidelity. Currently this is being researched, but it's far from perfect.

When I can "talk" to my computer and tell it to do exactly what I need it to do just by thinking, I believe we would be in a good place to start researching brains on the moments prior, at, and after death.

Maybe in the coming decades we will uncover something more. But if that's the case then self sentient AI won't be far off either and that is also terrifying to think of

 

[based_meme]

Neurochemical process in the brain change when we dream or take drugs. Drugs are even specifically build for this purpose. These changes also bring about shift in exchange of biochemical energy.( All this leads to said shift in subjective perception). The second law of thermodynamics dictates that no such shift is free from waste. It would be impossible to continue this process for eternity . Unless it is externally, physically sustained for eternity

Another thing is, these experiences are also different in other ways from conscious state. So how we subjectively perceive time in them cannot be used as a comparison.(For ex- We experience no time passing in deep dreamless sleep. But we don't experience anything else as well. So its useless.). But that's just a minor addendum to the greater issue.

I can tell you this with absolute certainity. Give me a man who is experiencing eternity in his dying moments. And I will solve the world energy problem once and for all.

The experience is not necessarily based on external sensory data. This is something I went over earlier. You're defining "experience" as some quantifiable unit that is standardized and universal across all who possess this "unit of experience." That's... something else entirely. You can't measure the internal subjective states in any meaningful way that translates to anything more than what you get from fMRI and neurochemical readings (thanks, Chalmers).

How can you devise a way to demonstrate that some minute biochemical energy change translates to a large shift in perceptual change equally among separate participants? You could try administering the same drug to two separate individuals who are effectively identical across a multitude of variables and categories (age, diet, upbringing, you name it) and then ask them how much time they believe has passed, but it's not as if both of the subjects will have some shared clock that they can refer to in their separate hallucinatory/dream states.

This is an empirical barrier that is philosophically and literally impossible to cross. "Experience" is not something you can quantify and then engineer solutions to problems around it. It would be nice, but I'm afraid it's not possible.

 

[Caesercel]

You could be right

But if not then it's really a roll of the die, either eternal bliss or "eternal" pain

Most ndes are described as similar to as if you're on Xanax, all worries and troubles gone, no sense of danger or difficulty, just peace. It varies alot though. Some describe it as literal heaven, they see all their dead relatives and friends there contempt and happy.

I wouldn't mind that eternity at all, but others, describe seeing literal demons or being in pain. That is truly immensely terrifying and the reason I'm scared to rope

Also interesting to suggest that it's possible if this is true, whatever you believe about death may be what happens. So, those bombers who died blowing people up really do get their 72 virgins in heaven.

Actually I am fairly certain its eternal nothingness. Of course nobody can know for sure. I am just applying simple logic and occum's razor to come to this conclusion. The biggest indicator is, as I said, we have already "experienced" death for billions of years. Having said that, this is nothing to worry your mind over. I don't think you should rope either way. Just let it be. You're gonna die anyway.

 

[Billowel]

yes

 

[ionlycopenow]

The experience is not necessarily based on external sensory data. This is something I went over earlier. You're defining "experience" as some quantifiable unit that is standardized and universal across all who possess this "unit of experience." That's... something else entirely. You can't measure the internal subjective states in any meaningful way that translates to anything more than what you get from fMRI and neurochemical readings (thanks, Chalmers).

How can you devise a way to demonstrate that some minute biochemical energy change translates to a large shift in perceptual change equally among separate participants? You could try administering the same drug to two separate individuals who are effectively identical across a multitude of variables and categories (age, diet, upbringing, you name it) and then ask them how much time they believe has passed, but it's not as if both of the subjects will have some shared clock that they can refer to in their separate hallucinatory/dream states.

This is an empirical barrier that is philosophically and literally impossible to cross. "Experience" is not something you can quantify and then engineer solutions to problems around it. It would be nice, but I'm afraid it's not possible.

Have you thought about what if you're wrong on this theory? What would be the other alternative?

 

[Caesercel]

The experience is not necessarily based on external sensory data. This is something I went over earlier. You're defining "experience" as some quantifiable unit that is standardized and universal across all who possess this "unit of experience." That's... something else entirely. You can't measure the internal subjective states in any meaningful way that translates to anything more than what you get from fMRI and neurochemical readings (thanks, Chalmers).

How can you devise a way to demonstrate that some minute biochemical energy change translates to a large shift in perceptual change equally among separate participants? You could try administering the same drug to two separate individuals who are effectively identical across a multitude of variables and categories (age, diet, upbringing, you name it) and then ask them how much time they believe has passed, but it's not as if both of the subjects will have some shared clock that they can refer to in their separate hallucinatory/dream states.

This is an empirical barrier that is philosophically and literally impossible to cross. "Experience" is not something you can quantify and then engineer solutions to problems around it. It would be nice, but I'm afraid it's not possible.

I am still not fully convinced that experience could really be this divorced from its physical base. The fact that we can develop chemicals to have certain experiences is one big indicator of that(amongst various others that science affords us). For eternal experience to work it would have to be a metaphysical entity of its own divorced from physical reality. I don't really buy into this much. Maybe you are right, but its still a farcry from here to hypothesize that eternal experiences await us on death bed.

 

[based_meme]

Have you thought about what if you're wrong on this theory? What would be the other alternative?

Yes, I've thought about this a lot. The alternatives are easy: nothingness, or some flavor of a religious afterlife.

There is a third, metaphysical alternative, but it invokes a notion related to panpsychism. It's the idea of consciousness as some fundamental universal force, not unlike the four fundamental physical forces (weak nuclear, strong nuclear, electromagnetic, gravitational), that must necessarily persist after death. The challenge so far is measuring this force in some reliable and concrete manner. This idea lies somewhere at the intersection of belief, science, and conjecture.

 

[ionlycopenow]

Yes, I've thought about this a lot. The alternatives are easy: nothingness, or some flavor of a religious afterlife.

There is a third, metaphysical alternative, but it invokes a notion related to panpsychism. It's the idea of consciousness as some fundamental universal force, not unlike the four fundamental physical forces (weak nuclear, strong nuclear, electromagnetic, gravitational), that must necessarily persist after death. The challenge so far is measuring this force in some reliable and concrete manner. This idea lies somewhere at the intersection of belief, science, and conjecture.

This shit is so scary to think about man

nobody knows, it could be true nothingness, or eternal bliss, or eternal pain. And what religion is the correct one if religiouscels are right? Considering that many religions only mortal sin is not believing in it

Death has always been my biggest fear. Even as a child, I would sometimes cry in panic attacks at imagery of heaven, hell, the afterlife, etc

Forgive me for being low IQ but I don't get that last option.

 

[based_meme]

I am still not fully convinced that experience could really be this divorced from its physical base. The fact that we can develop chemicals to have certain experiences is one big indicator of that(amongst various others that science affords us). For eternal experience to work it would have to be a metaphysical entity of its own divorced from physical reality. I don't really buy into this much. Maybe you are right, but its still a farcry from here to hypothesize that eternal experiences await us on death bed.

Alright, picture this. You, me, and some other brocels. We're all sitting around a table, playing cards, smoking cigars, discussing black pills, joking around, and calling each other faggots and niggers (maybe not so much that last part, but whatever, roll with me on this).

So I'm raking in the biggest pot of the night (don't question it, this is my story here) when in walks this 10/10 giga stacy in a trenchcoat. She's picture perfect, almost as if genetically engineered. Flawless skin, hair, and proportions. Whatever your idea of perfect is, this is it. She glances over at each of our subhuman visages equally, doesn't say a Goddamn word, and takes a stance like she's in a fucking old Western, ready to draw.

We're all tense and confused, looking at each other like, "this is it, buddy boyos. It's over. We're all gonna die, and some foid is gonna do us in. What a sick fucking joke reality is playing on us. " We all close our eyes like we all know what's about to happen.

Then she does what nobody sees coming. She takes off the trench coat and is buck naked. Every inch exposed. Top to bottom. She stands there, letting all of us soak it in, like the attention whore that she is. Then she turns around and walks out. Again, without uttering a single word (because why should she open her damn mouth, if it isn't to suck a dick, right?).

In this moment none of know what to think or feel. Confused ("WHAT THE FUCK JUST HAPPENED?"), angry ("who the fuck left the door open and let this foid in?"), joyous ("that's the closest I've ever been to a naked woman."), sad ("I'll never have that."), horny ("FUAAAK! I need to fap right this second.... Fuck it, I'm doin' it. Nobody will notice.").

We all shared the same experience. But each of us had a different experience altogether. Even from a purely physicalist perspective, we had different experiences. Our eyes have different rods and cones, so we experienced the colors differently. Some of us got angry, others got horny. Those are different internal chemical states.

Relying on any machine measuring our experiences to relay the experience will give you dramatically different accounts. None of it may converge to the true account of the experience, but each of those experiences are as valid and real as the other.

So while experience may have some empirical basis (it obviously has a physical one), it is fundamentally irreducible to constituent physical parts and is inherently something that cannot be universally quantified.

Yes, what I'm suggesting is certainly making some big leaps that ask to have a bit of faith (ironically) and to use your imagination, but the tethers are there. It's merely a question of how much you want to pull on them.

Forgive me for being low IQ but I don't get that last option.

No worries bro. Think of it like a secular, philosophical version of an afterlife with undefined properties and attributes.

 

[Michinomiya Hirohit]

No. If there's an afterlife after i sui , I would be extremely frustrated

 

[ionlycopenow]

Alright, picture this. You, me, and some other brocels. We're all sitting around a table, playing cards, smoking cigars, discussing black pills, joking around, and calling each other faggots and niggers (maybe not so much that last part, but whatever, roll with me on this).

So I'm raking in the biggest pot of the night (don't question it, this is my story here) when in walks this 10/10 giga stacy in a trenchcoat. She's picture perfect, almost as if genetically engineered. Flawless skin, hair, and proportions. Whatever your idea of perfect is, this is it. She glances over at each of our subhuman visages equally, doesn't say a Goddamn word, and takes a stance like she's in a fucking old Western, ready to draw.

We're all tense and confused, looking at each other like, "this is it, buddy boyos. It's over. We're all gonna die, and some foid is gonna do us in. What a sick fucking joke reality is playing on us. " We all close our eyes like we all know what's about to happen.

Then she does what nobody sees coming. She takes off the trench coat and is buck naked. Every inch exposed. Top to bottom. She stands there, letting all of us soak it in, like the attention whore that she is. Then she turns around and walks out. Again, without uttering a single word (because why should she open her damn mouth, if it isn't to suck a dick, right?).

In this moment none of know what to think or feel. Confused ("WHAT THE FUCK JUST HAPPENED?"), angry ("who the fuck left the door open and let this foid in?"), joyous ("that's the closest I've ever been to a naked woman."), sad ("I'll never have that."), horny ("FUAAAK! I need to fap right this second.... Fuck it, I'm doin' it. Nobody will notice.").

We all shared the same experience. But each of us had a different experience altogether. Even from a purely physicalist perspective, we had different experiences. Our eyes have different rods and cones, so we experienced the colors differently. Some of us got angry, others got horny. Those are different internal chemical states.

Relying on any machine measuring our experiences to relay the experience will tell give you dramatically different accounts. None of it may converge to the true account of the experience, but each of those experiences are as valid and real as the other.

So while experience may have some empirical basis (it obviously has a physical one), it is fundamentally irreducible to constituent physical parts and is inherently something that cannot be universally quantified.

Yes, what I'm suggesting is certainly making some big leaps that ask to have a bit of faith (ironically) and to use your imagination, but the tethers are there. It's merely a question of how much you want to pull on them.



No worries bro. Think of it like a secular, philosophical version of an afterlife with undefined properties and attributes.

This is very very frightening because does it not imply that if I'm a very anxious person I'm more likely to have pain and anxiousness for all "eternity" if that happens?

another thing, is it not possible that if you just believe a certain thing will happen after you die, then that is what happens under this theory?

 

[based_meme]

This is very very frightening because does it not imply that if I'm a very anxious person I'm more likely to have pain and anxiousness for all "eternity" if that happens?

another thing, is it not possible that if you just believe a certain thing will happen after you die, then that is what happens under this theory?

Bro, take it easy. You're gonna have a self-induced, nervous breakdown.

This is just a fledgling idea. It's all philosophical speculation. Nothing is proven.

Go for a walk, get some fresh air, fap, do something. Get your mind off of this.

 

[ionlycopenow]

Bro, take it easy. You're gonna have a self-induced, nervous breakdown.

This is just a fledgling idea. It's all philosophical speculation. Nothing is proven.

Go for a walk, get some fresh air, fap, do something. Get your mind off of this.

Man you have no idea. I have been having a very heightened level of anxiety since I smoked weed a month ago, constant tension headaches for days on end and panic attack every week, I found out that shit is poison to me. I currently have another tension headache as we speak. But yeah, going on runs does help so I will do that right now.

 

[FinnCel]

Remember that things are always worse than you think.
Hell exists just for incels

 

[Mainländer]

Yes bro. I'm sure I'm going to heaven when I die. Like the Red Grasshopper would say, follow me the good ones.

Actually, no one is good, all credit goes to Jesus.

 

[ionlycopenow]

Remember that things are always worse than you think.
Hell exists just for incels

Imagine if the Bible said if you're ugly you're going to hell. Jfl

 

[Black Soul]

@based_meme @Caesercel @ionlycopenow
Thank you for the smart and interesting discussion that you rarely see in the forum. we should support high effort posts

 

[TheHopefulBeliever]

No. I think it's the oldest cope to cope with death

 

[Deleted member 27159]

No but quantum immortality could be a thing

 

[ionlycopenow]

@based_meme @Caesercel @ionlycopenow
Thank you for the smart and interesting discussion that you rarely see in the forum. we should support high effort posts

@BlkPillPres seems mysteriously absent. I would figure if any user would put in their two cents about what based meme or Caesar said it would be him among a few others.

No but quantum immortality could be a thing

yeah anything "could be a thing"

 

[Capable_Onion]

Given all of the rabbit holes I've gone through on the subject, I find it highly unlikely that there wouldn't be.

 

[ionlycopenow]

Given all of the rabbit holes I've gone through on the subject, I find it highly unlikely that there wouldn't be.

Such as?

 

[FUCKITALLREEE]

We ded, we ded nigga.

People who say they had near death experience is probably their brain releasing big amount of hormones in their bloodstreams.

 

[ionlycopenow]

We ded, we ded nigga.

People who say they had near death experience is probably their brain releasing big amount of hormones in their bloodstreams.

But they're dead.

 

[FUCKITALLREEE]

But they're dead.

"Near death experience" So the brain is still alive.

 

[BenBerger]

Do you? If not, what do you say about people who claim near death experiences? Are they lying, or is it something else? It's important to remember that even after you die, some of your cells are still alive and in some cases they fire off crazier than usual as well. They do die eventually though as well until all of your cells are dead, so do you think these "near death experiences" are just the gradual death of the body as a whole, something else, or just total BS?

Its not total BS. The moon has a sort of soul recycling machine. After we die some of us go there where our memories are erased and then the soul comes back here.
See my post:

https://incels.is/threads/a-basis-for-a-new-blackpilled-gnostic-belief-system-for-incels.184139/

 

[Capable_Onion]

Such as?

It really depends on what you're asking when you say that.

The conversation can really go from anything to the nephilim conspiracy, to evolution, to cern, and a whole bunch of other crazy shit.

 

[ionlycopenow]

Its not total BS. The moon has a sort of soul recycling machine. After we die some of us go there where our memories are erased and then the soul comes back here.
See my post:

https://incels.is/threads/a-basis-for-a-new-blackpilled-gnostic-belief-system-for-incels.184139/

Why the moon? why some?

 

[Blackpill Rage]

Incels are already in the afterlife.