How useful can self-taught programming be nowadays for a NEET oldcel who doesn't want to work low paid jobs all his life?

[Deleted member 7448]

Has the ship sailed on this one? Can a NEET incel who is already way past university age just pick up programming over the course of a year or two and eventually start making some decent money? Or is it just an unrealistic dream?

I know it won't work for me, not only cause I'm in a third world shithole with no jobs where even those who formally studied IT can't find shit. But my brain still blasts this daydream of being a programmer at me, guess I just can't cope with my future of working shit jobs all my life. But if there was a good chance of making money with programming, I'd get my ADD, 0 attention span, 0 mental energy depressed moron ass to start teaching myself programming asap.

 

[Angry_runt]

A lot depends on who you know. If you don't have any experience and don't know anyone, it's going to be pretty hard. If you have someone to recommend you, then you only need basic competence to get an entry level job and work up from there. Maybe you could pose as a homeless guy trying to learn programming and then some virtue signalling company will hire you.

 

[metabuxx]

Its probably worthless in a third world country.
It would have been better if you were in a first world country.

Like here in Canada I've met many self taught programmers who landed decent jobs. They had lots of contacts though.
Experience is important too. Don't even bother if you are in your 40s or even late 30s.

 

[Deleted member 7448]

A lot depends on who you know. If you don't have any experience and don't know anyone, it's going to be pretty hard. If you have someone to recommend you, then you only need basic competence to get an entry level job and work up from there. Maybe you could pose as a homeless guy trying to learn programming and then some virtue signalling company will hire you.

When it comes to knowing people I'm out of the equation. I'm probably one of the least sociable people on earth and I'm not exaggerating. Only got mom and dad in my phone. Much less friends, I don't really have acquaintances (except old highschool or uni colleagues who I dread seeing on the street since they'd remember my many embarrassing events and general horrible reputation of an autist and ex-alcoholic).

 

[Angry_runt]

When it comes to knowing people I'm out of the equation. I'm probably one of the least sociable people on earth and I'm not exaggerating. Only got mom and dad in my phone. Much less friends, I don't really have acquaintances (except old highschool or uni colleagues who I dread seeing on the street since they'd remember my many embarrassing events and general horrible reputation of an autist and ex-alcoholic).

How old are you roughly and what's your degree in?

 

[Deleted member 7448]

Its probably worthless in a third world country.
It would've have been better if you were in a first world country.

Like here in Canada I've met many self taught programmers who landed decent jobs. They had lots of contacts though.
Experience is important too. Don't even bother if you are in your 40s or even late 30s.

Well, I'm nowhere near that old luckily. But the part about countries is so true, I've thought about it a lot and there's just no options here, none. And freelancing on the internet or something is just unrealistic, competing with millions of others, trying to see who will do more work for less money, race to the bottom, and that's if you land any actual gig.

How old are you roughly and what's your degree in?

Not 30 yet and meme degree.

 

[Incellus]

I studied engineering in school, and had only one course in "computing" (which was just numerical methods). During the summers, I interned at a large computer company (this was long ago), and learned programming by writing code. I found programming to be pretty easy, and eventually became a software developer with the same company after I graduated and did my military service.

Of course, this was all long ago (I'm an oldcel), and I'm in the US.

I started with Fortran and Assembler, but nowadays it would probably be Python or C++.

 

[Deleted member 24876]

idk tbh, most cs jobs require a college degree in cs. Foids also get a massive advantage during the hiring stage.

 

[Angry_runt]

Not 30 yet and meme degree.

Man you're fine, just pick some tech you find the least boring and make some halfway decent projects and look for jobs based on that.

 

[metabuxx]

Well, I'm nowhere near that old luckily. But the part about countries is so true, I've thought about it a lot and there's just no options here, none. And freelancing on the internet or something is just unrealistic, competing with millions of others, trying to see who will do more work for less money, race to the bottom, and that's if you land any actual gig.

Not 30 yet and the degree is essentially toilet paper.

Well then you can try to relocate to better country. Countries like germany have lenient migration policies (considering you have enough money).

You can complete an online course in any one of their universities, make contacts and try to get an entry level job. Its far better than rotting in a third world shithole.

 

[incelerated]

As someone who has been interested in programming and computers all his life and has tried learning a few programming languages:

1- Your mental issues (attention span, depression, OCD, etc.) are going to be a problem. You think you can overcome them but it's pretty hard. Every SINGLE time I have tried to get better at a programming language I end up quitting partly because my OCD and my mood changes stop me from focusing on one thing for a long time.

2- You simply can't get good at it without going to a professional work environment. I don't care how many people claim they are self-taught, they are all lying. You can teach yourself the basics, you can even teach yourself medium to advanced stuff but you will never know what to do when shit gets real. You will never know what the "industry standard" solution to problems are. So you end up reinventing the wheel, or just quitting because you hit a wall.
It's like knowing everything there is to know about math and theoretical physics and then trying to build a space rocket. Theoretically all there is to it is just math and theoretical physics but can you build a space rocket? Of course not, because there's been decades of trials and errors and people have found standard solutions to problems, in short experience, which you lack.
It's the same with programming. You can read every book there is and know all the details about a language but if you try to write something real and big you're gonna find yourself lost. Trust me it has happened to me.
Aside from that you'll learn 10 times more when working somewhere compared to what you'll learn by yourself.

So if you're thinking of self-taught as staying in your room all day coding, and then after two years emerging as a professional coder then it's not going to happen.
But you can totally teach yourself the basics and medium stuff and become comfortable with a language, then start going to a professional environment to see how the real job is actually done and then after a few months or few years you can maybe become a freelancer, or stay employed if you prefer. This is the right way to do it.

Regarding how long it takes, well if you don't have any previous experience it might feel uncomfortable at first specially since we're not young anymore to be honest. So I don't know, maybe a year if you're genuinely interested and keep practicing. But like I said you have to go somewhere and actually work with other people to become good. Unless you're doing small projects which I don't think will make much money.

 

[Deleted member 7448]

Man you're fine, just pick some tech you find the least boring and make some halfway decent projects and look for jobs based on that.

Is there another goal I can shoot for in lieu of the possiblity of getting a job? I know for a fact I won't find a tech job in this country without formal degrees in the field. Or is it just hoping to get lucky with an app or something?

I studied engineering in school, and had only one course in "computing" (which was just numerical methods). During the summers, I interned at a large computer company (this was long ago), and learned programming by writing code. I found programming to be pretty easy, and eventually became a software developer with the same company after I graduated and did my military service.

Of course, this was all long ago (I'm an oldcel), and I'm in the US.

I started with Fortran and Assembler, but nowadays it would probably be Python or C++.

Wow, that's quite the life journey. Quite accomplished.

idk tbh, most cs jobs require a college degree in cs. Foids also get a massive advantage during the hiring stage.

Yeah it does seem so, especially so in bad economies.

Well then you can try to relocate to better country. Countries like germany have lenient migration policies (considering you have enough money).

You can complete an online course in any one of their universities, make contacts and try to get an entry level job. Its far better than rotting in a third world shithole.

Not really, I thought a lot about it and it just doesn't make much sense. Without a proper degree I'd just be stuck doing shit-tier jobs anyway, and with rent and higher col there I'd end up worse off than at home.

As someone who has been interested in programming and computers all his life and has tried learning a few programming languages:

1- Your mental issues (attention span, depression, OCD, etc.) are going to be a problem. You think you can overcome them but it's pretty hard. Every SINGLE time I have tried to get better at a programming language I end up quitting partly because my OCD and my mood changes stop me from focusing on one thing for a long time.

2- You simply can't get good at it without going to a professional work environment. I don't care how many people claim they are self-taught, they are all lying. You can teach yourself the basics, you can even teach yourself medium to advanced stuff but you will never know what to do when shit gets real. You will never know what the "industry standard" solution to problems are. So you end up reinventing the wheel, or just quitting because you hit a wall.
It's like knowing everything there is to know about math and theoretical physics and then trying to build a space rocket. Theoretically all there is to it is just math and theoretical physics but can you build a space rocket? Of course not, because there's been decades of trials and errors and people have found standard solutions to problems, in short experience, which you lack.
It's the same with programming. You can read every book there is and know all the details about a language but if you try to write something real and big you're gonna find yourself lost. Trust me it has happened to me.
Aside from that you'll learn 10 times more when working somewhere compared to what you'll learn by yourself.

So if you're thinking of self-taught as staying in your room all day coding, and then after two years emerging as a professional coder then it's not going to happen.
But you can totally teach yourself the basics and medium stuff and become comfortable with a language, then start going to a professional environment to see how the real job is actually done and then after a few months or few years you can maybe become a freelancer, or stay employed if you prefer. This is the right way to do it.

Regarding how long it takes, well if you don't have any previous experience it might feel uncomfortable at first specially since we're not young anymore to be honest. So I don't know, maybe a year if you're genuinely interested and keep practicing. But like I said you have to go somewhere and actually work with other people to become good. Unless you're doing small projects which I don't think will make much money.

Now this is the answer I was waiting for. Thank you mate! That is very insightful and truthful, doubt I'd get a more appropriate and realistic response anywhere else. Yep, the mental problems would make it difficult, but the other issues are even more pressing. I definitely won't have the possibility, nor the time and not even the energy to get work experience. I'll have to work an actual job and I'd have to do that in my spare time, but that's not the problem. The problem is that in countries such as these there's less of such flexibility, you need a degree in the right field and then you get a job, no way around that.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the post. Really is enlightening. I should really drop this daydream in my head that I can just code in my room for a year or two a few hours a day and then I'll make a lot of money. But no matter how much I know it's unrealistic my brain tortures me with it, since I guess I just can't accept reality that I fucked up and I won't get anywhere in life.

 

[Negroid Berber]

Tbh without a degree you can't do shit.
You could make something by yourself and sell it/patreon but I don't think that wouldn't be a real job

 

[Angry_runt]

Is there another goal I can shoot for in lieu of the possiblity of getting a job? I know for a fact I won't find a tech job in this country without formal degrees in the field. Or is it just hoping to get lucky with an app or something?

Sure you don't have to get a job and that would even make things easier for you because your lack of formal education in the field or work experience won't be an issue. The problem is the competition for everything is insane. When you browse for apps in the app stores you're seeing the (most successful) tip of the iceberg. It's like 20% of men fuck 80% of the women, but 1% of the apps get 99% of the revenue or some crazy stat like that. After all why would you download the third-best app for anything, never mind 20th best?

When you work at a company, you can be mediocre and still pull a decent salary.
I'd still recommend making some projects (apps, websites, whatever) even if they have little chance of making money. You'll have something to show off to your prospective employer and they might give you a shot even if you have a meme degree.

I don't care how many people claim they are self-taught, they are all lying. You can teach yourself the basics, you can even teach yourself medium to advanced stuff but you will never know what to do when shit gets real. You will never know what the "industry standard" solution to problems are. So you end up reinventing the wheel, or just quitting because you hit a wall.

I was going to disagree but come to think of it this is true and not only in tech. Everyone in every field is expected to learn on the job (even doctors), but especially in something as volatile as tech. It's expected though, and if a company is hiring for a junior position they'll account for training that's needed.

 

[Deleted member 7448]

Sure you don't have to get a job and that would even make things easier for you because your lack of formal education in the field or work experience won't be an issue. The problem is the competition for everything is insane. When you browse for apps in the app stores you're seeing the (most successful) tip of the iceberg. It's like 20% of men fuck 80% of the women, but 1% of the apps get 99% of the revenue or some crazy stat like that. After all why would you download the third-best app for anything, never mind 20th best?

When you work at a company, you can be mediocre and still pull a decent salary.
I'd still recommend making some projects (apps, websites, whatever) even if they have little chance of making money. You'll have something to show off to your prospective employer and they might give you a shot even if you have a meme degree.


I was going to disagree but come to think of it this is true and not only in tech. Everyone in every field is expected to learn on the job (even doctors), but especially in something as volatile as tech. It's expected though, and if a company is hiring for a junior position they'll account for training that's needed.

Great insight, very true unfortunately, thanks.