Welcome to Incels.is - Involuntary Celibate Forum

Welcome! This is a forum for involuntary celibates: people who lack a significant other. Are you lonely and wish you had someone in your life? You're not alone! Join our forum and talk to people just like you.

Blackpill Religious-cels, i will convert to being a believer in god if any of you can solve the EPICUREAN PARADOX.

IncelKing

IncelKing

Chaos is a laddER
★★★★★
Joined
Jan 7, 2019
Posts
9,519
In Abrahamic religions God is typically given 3 qualities: ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, ALL LOVING.
Lets assume God exists, for the sake of argument.

1. If God truly is ALL KNOWING, then there is no need to test us as he knows every Action we're going to perform before we even perform them, he knows every possible series of events at every point in time and space, why would he test WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS?

If God doesnt know what we're going to do due to which he needs to test us, then that means that GOD ISN'T ALL KNOWING.

2.
If God is ALL POWERFUL, then it is very possible that not only does he KNOW every action each of us will take in our lifespan, he may even be CONTROLLING our actions. If God IS RESPONSIBLE for bringing us into the world under CIRCUMSTANCES of HIS CHOOSING, then its possible that God IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE for the ACTIONS we take in our lifespan. For all we know, we're just puppets and God is pulling our strings. If God controls our actions and is manipulating us to do what he wants assuming god is ALL-POWERFUL, then that means FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST. There is no reason to test us IF WE LACK THE FREE WILL TO MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES. We are basically no different to an AI in a robot, operating and functioning in accordance to lines of code written by the programmer (GOD).

If god can't control our actions due to which he needs to "test us", then GOD ISN'T ALL POWERFUL.


If neither of those 2 scenarios are true, in other words If god really is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL, yet he creates a world of pain and suffering for no reason the only logical conclusion is that:

GOD ISN'T ALL LOVING.

Pain and Suffering exist for GOD'S ENTERTAINMENT. Emotional human beings like to project their own emotions onto their idea of the concept of "God", but if god exists, he's most likely a cold and emotionless psychopath.

8o4v93d735t41.jpg
 
It's impossible, the thread will be ignored.
 
Waste of effort trying the accomodate low IQ religious retards tbh.
 
If God truly is ALL KNOWING, then there is no need to test us as he knows every Action we're going to perform before we even perform them, he knows every possible series of events at every point in time and space, why would he test WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS?
This Is why the Christian God is something impossible to believe in. Only free will denyiers like calvinists can somehow escape the paradox.

The Traditional Roman idea of God Is much more adherent to the reality of the World
 
a million books have been done on the problem of evil.Books detailing the problem and it's solutions made for the layman,to the autistic philosopher,to the conceited scientist,to a cave dweller etc etc.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei0gPoqx_bQ&t=127s


this video deals with the average arguments in a decent format.also tackles the epicurean paradox.
 
Last edited:
Your premise is completely wrong. In the muslim faith we don't believe God is all loving. Allah has 99 names, one of which is "the Avenger" and another one which translates to "the Distressor, the Harmer" . His love is conditional.
Pretty sure this is a regurgitation of what your master blkpillpress already posted. If God loves all then he loves whores, you think I would want any part of a religion that believes that? Your arguments only work on Christianity.
 
Last edited:
Your premise is completely wrong. In the muslim faith we don't believe God is all loving. Allah has 99 names, one of which is "the Avenger" and another one which translates to "the Distressor, the Harmer" . His love is conditional.
If God loves all then he loves whores, you think I would want any part of a religion that believes that? Your arguments only work on Christianity.
my mistake, i should have written "Christian God" rather than "Abrahamic God", although this doesn't invalidate the rest of the argument lol.
Pretty sure this is a regurgitation of what your master blkpillpress already posted.
If he already posted this, then i was unaware of it. Unlike most of the losers here i dont spend all day rotting on the forum, so i may have been doing something else when he posted about the same thing, hence i didn't see his allegedly similiar post to mine. We likely just came to the same conclusions by circumstance.
 
Last edited:
Your premise is completely wrong. In the muslim faith we don't believe God is all loving. Allah has 99 names, one of which is "the Avenger" and another one which translates to "the Distressor, the Harmer" . His love is conditional.
Pretty sure this is a regurgitation of what your master blkpillpress already posted. If God loves all then he loves whores, you think I would want any part of a religion that believes that? Your arguments only work on Christianity.
Believing "God" is vengeful and all displaying all kinds of weak traits doesn't improve the argument from the pro religious side, quite the opposite. How low IQ do you have to be to not grasp this shit, no wonder the enlightenment happened in europe. JFL at indoctrinated retards all the more, tbh.

"His love is conditional"

68230602
 
I'll try (and probably fail).

Alright first of all. I want you to write down all the digits in Infinity.

The human mind with it's finite knowledge, finite brain cells and finite mental processes can not comprehend an infinite entity.

Everything from God being Omnipotent, Omniprescene and Omni-everything are attributes which we can not resolve in our limited understand.

Anyway if you ever want me to expand on this feel free, but I'm going to address your comments.

If God truly is ALL KNOWING, then there is no need to test us as he knows every Action we're going to perform before we even perform them, he knows every possible series of events at every point in time and space, why would he test WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS?

If God doesnt know what we're going to do due to which he needs to test us, then that means that GOD ISN'T ALL KNOWING.

Knowledge is not directly correlated to Causation(I think)?

Once again before I go on. REMEMBER.

The human mind with it's finite knowledge, finite brain cells and finite mental processes can not comprehend an infinite entity.

God did not make us as "robots" with a programmed script to follow, we have choices to make but God already knows the choice we shall make. If you believe in predestination then you'll believe that God knows all the outcomes that shall arise from your choices.
The main "issue" which we as humans can not mentally get our heads around is "How can God be all-knowing yet we supposedly have free will"? And in all honesty it puzzles me at times.

A commentary channel stated that:

the quantum multiverse exists. every time a soul makes a choice, it moves through a different branching universe. the other universes -- "the road not taken" - continue to exist. God knows everything in all universes. So, no matter your choice, he knows the outcome, and you're still free to choose.


I'll address your other points in a few hours. Typing on a phone is a nightmare.

Also, my aim of this post isn't to "convert you". It's through faith that you become converted. I just like these type of threads as it opens ground for deeper thinking and appreciating other people's perspectives.
 
INCELDOM DISCUSSIONS
 
INCELDOM DISCUSSIONS
This.

Also no one cares if you convert. Unless you're giving me a million bucks you can believe in not existing after death all you want.

2020 06 26 10 46 11
 
my mistake, i should have written "Christian God" rather than "Abrahamic God", although this doesn't invalidate the rest of the argument lol.

If he already posted this, then i was unaware of it. Unlike most of the losers here i dont spend all day rotting on the forum, so i may have been doing something else when he posted about the same thing, hence i didn't see his allegedly similiar post to mine. We likely just came to the same conclusions by circumstance.
For question 1. It's basically saying he knows what's going to happen but you chose to do it, you are able to experience it so you can have a recollection of it when you meet him in the afterlife and have to explain yourself when put on trial. BTW in the trial you don't have control of your body, it's just a vessel that reveals all truth. Basically for you to know why your entering hell/heaven.

For question 2: Nope he say's he has given free will.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gWGbKaJml8
 
Btw Hindu gods are not known for being all loving. That's an Abrahmic humancentric concept. Hindu gods did not create the universe to serve man or to bring him pleasure. Man is just a part of it. So is evil.
 
no wonder the enlightenment happened in europe. JFL at indoctrinated retards all the more, tbh.

:soy::soy::soy::soy:Yeah look how great the enlightenment turned out. Legalise pre-marital sex> create tinder > Chad fucks thousands of roasties while you rot.
 
:soy::soy::soy::soy:Yeah look how great the enlightenment turned out. Legalise pre-marital sex> create tinder > Chad fucks thousands of roasties while you rot.
Never said enlightenment was net positive, keep coping you low IQ underdeveloped subhuman. Why don't you go build a mud hut for our amusement.
 
Never said enlightenment was net good, keep coping you low IQ underdeveloped subhuman. Why don't you go build a mud hut for our amusement.

Okay secular cuck. I'm low IQ but you can't even write a comprehensible sentence.
 
For question 1. It's basically saying he knows what's going to happen but you chose to do it, you are able to experience it so you can have a recollection of it when you meet him in the afterlife and have to explain yourself when put on trial. BTW in the trial you don't have control of your body, it's just a vessel that reveals all truth. Basically for you to know why your entering hell/heaven.

For question 2: Nope he say's he has given free will.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gWGbKaJml8


You are making a circular argument. You are pre-supposing that free will even exists to begin with, IN YOUR ARGUMENT TO VALIDATE THAT LIFE IS GOD'S TEST OF THE CHOICES WE MAKE USING THAT "PRE-SUPPOSED" FREE WILL . Circular arguments are fallacious and illogical.

Besides, if god is all powerful then Why does God give us temporary lives in a world of pain and suffering in order to "test us", based on the outcome of which our pain/suffering either ends when we dies (heaven) or continues on for eternity (hell).

God could just give birth to every living being in a world devoid of pain and suffering in the first place, where all living beings are immortal. In other words, god CAN just send us all to heaven (by default) if he wants to do so because he is ALL-POWERFUL.

So despite his ABILITY to create a world WITHOUT pain/suffering and death, he decided to create one WITH IT instead.

god is evil buddy boyo.
 
Last edited:
God is each one of us and god is every animal , tree , living or non living thing . Everything is god and god is the only thing that exist . He is the only substance of everything , he molds himself as a substance in any form and shape he desire such as animals , angles , devils , human and everything ... . So the big picture is that god is playing a game by himself that is called existence , being alone by himself he is free to do with himself whatever he wants . Our purpose as human is to transcend beyond the illusion of separation with god and be as god having god consciousness and awareness using this human form to manifest the Devine self in a human way . That's what religions and prophets was preaching for ages . And the last religion sent by god is Islam . Stop seeing things as right or wrong but instead as god doing with himself as he please and everything and us are himself . So god exist and real and true neither good or bad .
 
In Abrahamic religions God is typically given 3 qualities: ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, ALL LOVING.
Lets assume God exists, for the sake of argument.

1. If God truly is ALL KNOWING, then there is no need to test us as he knows every Action we're going to perform before we even perform them, he knows every possible series of events at every point in time and space, why would he test WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS?

If God doesnt know what we're going to do due to which he needs to test us, then that means that GOD ISN'T ALL KNOWING.

2.
If God is ALL POWERFUL, then it is very possible that not only does he KNOW every action each of us will take in our lifespan, he may even be CONTROLLING our actions. If God IS RESPONSIBLE for bringing us into the world under CIRCUMSTANCES of HIS CHOOSING, then its possible that God IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE for the ACTIONS we take in our lifespan. For all we know, we're just puppets and God is pulling our strings. If God controls our actions and is manipulating us to do what he wants assuming god is ALL-POWERFUL, then that means FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST. There is no reason to test us IF WE LACK THE FREE WILL TO MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES. We are basically no different to an AI in a robot, operating and functioning in accordance to lines of code written by the programmer (GOD).

If god can't control our actions due to which he needs to "test us", then GOD ISN'T ALL POWERFUL.


If neither of those 2 scenarios are true, in other words If god really is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL, yet he creates a world of pain and suffering for no reason the only logical conclusion is that:

GOD ISN'T ALL LOVING.

Pain and Suffering exist for GOD'S ENTERTAINMENT. Emotional human beings like to project their own emotions onto their idea of the concept of "God", but if god exists, he's most likely a cold and emotionless psychopath.

8o4v93d735t41.jpg

This paradox assumes two things:

1. We know what "love" is and are able to perceive it correctly in all circumstances
2. Determinism; that circumstances will always determine what exact actions you will take

You can hold to a belief of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God if you reject determinism and are able to admit that you can't always know what the "loving" thing to do is or that love may be more complicated than basic human instincts of love

Even if free will is hindered due to obstacles thrown at us, we still have it if you reject determinism.

Also, there may be reasons of why pain exists; without pain, people wouldn't know what good is, suffering may arguably always in good (a landslide causes people to volunteer, causes people to remember their loved ones and value them, suffering causes them to grow as people), etc. See "Irenaean Theodicy"



I'm agnostic, but that's the argument a theist would make.
 
Last edited:
Nah
I won't waste my time doing that
I'm too lazy
 
a million books have been done on the problem of evil.Books detailing the problem and it's solutions made for the layman,to the autistic philosopher,to the conceited scientist,to a cave dweller etc etc.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei0gPoqx_bQ&t=127s


this video deals with the average arguments in a decent format.also tackles the epicurean paradox.


The video doesn't address shit, the argument given is basically that if God didn't allow evil then you wouldn't have free will

1. God has been shown to take away free will all the time when it pleases him (example below), so you don't fucking know if your free will has been violated already:
Exodus 9:12 - " But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses"

2. The argument misses the entire point, there was no fucking reason for God to create a TEST for "creatures" (term used in the video) IF HE IS ALL KNOWING

Also there's no fucking reason for him to even create a world of free will with suffering, God literally could have just created a world of only pleasure and no pain, and let us all just go about enjoying existence, nobody was holding a gun to God's head and forcing him to create a world with suffering to test anything, he clearly wanted to do it for ENTERTAINMENT

God could just give birth to every living being in a world devoid of pain and suffering in the first place, where all living beings are immortal. In other words, god CAN just send us all to heaven (by default) if he wants to do so because he is ALL-POWERFUL.

So despite his ABILITY to create a world WITHOUT pain/suffering and death, he decided to create one WITH IT instead.

Exactly, just as I said above, God could literally have just made us all in heaven to live amazing immortal lives with no pain or suffering, but he WANTED to see us fucking suffer
 
Last edited:
Smoke DMT and tell me you dont come back with some belief of a higher power or afterlife.
 
Smoke DMT and tell me you dont come back with some belief of a higher power or afterlife.

Yes, mind altering drugs making you see crazy shit is definitely a logical reason to believe in something
 
Dont knock it until you try it.

1. That's not an argument, its a pointless statement

2. By that logic let me know how getting fucked in the ass goes, you haven't tried it so you can't dismiss the idea of it just yet lol
 
Btw Hindu gods are not known for being all loving. That's an Abrahmic humancentric concept. Hindu gods did not create the universe to serve man or to bring him pleasure. Man is just a part of it. So is evil.
This is right. In some sects it is clearly stated that the universe is created for the sole enjoyment of the Lord.
But also we have that in hinduism EVERYONE gets a chance to salvation.
Even very powerful demons get redeemed by dying by the hands of a transcendental deity.
God is each one of us and god is every animal , tree , living or non living thing . Everything is god and god is the only thing that exist . He is the only substance of everything , he molds himself as a substance in any form and shape he desire such as animals , angles , devils , human and everything ... . So the big picture is that god is playing a game by himself that is called existence , being alone by himself he is free to do with himself whatever he wants . Our purpose as human is to transcend beyond the illusion of separation with god and be as god having god consciousness and awareness using this human form to manifest the Devine self in a human way . That's what religions and prophets was preaching for ages . And the last religion sent by god is Islam . Stop seeing things as right or wrong but instead as god doing with himself as he please and everything and us are himself . So god exist and real and true neither good or bad .
This sounds like a more based sect of Islam.
 
If @BlkPillPres made a thread about how god is real you wouldn't have made this one

If I was the kind of person to make that thread, he wouldn't like anything I posted to begin with, you have the order of cause and effect mixed up

This, post it on off topic

Are you fucking kidding or are you retarded? (did you forget the kind of threads you have posted in "Inceldom Discussion")

This is definitely some quality "inceldom discussion" material that definitely exceeds the relevance of @IncelKing thread:

Definitely not a retarded pointless low IQ thread with a title like that

You ever think posters like you are the reason why there are 15 year olds who feel drawn to this site?

Maybe if there was more serious (less immature) well thought out content that a young teen would consider "boring", we wouldn't have a bunch of lurking (and active) young teencels who are one growth spurt away from making their cliche "I ascended guiiz, byeee" thread
 
Last edited:
why would i care ? give me a reason.

By that logic, try and care just as much about what gets posted in "the right section" seeing as you don't care about the quality of the forum, at least try and be logically consistent
 
You ever think posters like you are the reason why there are 15 year olds who feel drawn to this site?

Maybe if there was more serious (less immature) well thought out content that a young teen would consider "boring", we wouldn't have a bunch of lurking (and active) young teencels who are one growth spurt away from making their cliche "I ascended guiiz, byeee" thread

That's like r/incelsiwithouthate, just a zoo for onlookers and incels being edgy but not 'hateful'.

One thing I liked about the previous men's rights groups is at least the doiscussions were boring and were not actively lurked in by edge lords.
 
The future doesn’t exist, so knowing “everything” can’t apply to something that is not.

All powerful doesn’t mean he has to actively use his powers, or that he is using them on you.

Loving someone doesn’t mean spoiling them out of every inconvenience. Parents allow their children to experience things by themselves, to experience challenge to grow as a person. Dealing with problems on your own is part of your independence and free will. Do you want to live like those fat people in Wall-E? Plenty of people are loved and they don’t live like that. As I said, loving someone doesn’t mean spoiling them out of every inconvenience, only a giga soycuck simp thinks so.

Debunked.
 
Neither option will ever change how over it is.
 
If @BlkPillPres made a thread about how god is real you wouldn't have made this one.

No, i don't subscribe to anybody's ideology blindly, if i agree with someone's teachings its because their teachings make logical sense to me.

If blkpillpres says something illogical then i will call him out for it, but ive never had to do that because he is a logical person who makes logical arguments.

Ironically its religious people who show blind faith, they will believe in God despite there being no evidence to suggest that he even exists and despite the logical inconsistencies in their scripture as evident in the Epicurean Paradox. If god said that being sexually starved will take you to heaven, i bet you'd be promoting inceldom and calling for the banning of this forum instead of being a regular poster. JFL talk about lacking self-awareness.

Also this:

JFL this, their attachment to the concept of God is like stockholm syndrome, God could literally show up in their house and rape their mother in front of them, and they'll just say - "Who am I to say anything, God is so intelligent that I just can't comprehend why him raping my mother is necessary, its just part of his mysterious ways" :feelskek:
 
1. God is all knowing. He tests us to see what we’ll do but that doesn’t mean he isn’t all-knowing. We have free will, so he knows what we will do, but he tests us by having us use our free will to choose our decisions through what is presented in front of us. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t know what we’ll do. You seem to look at time like a parade, one thing after another passing by in sequence right in front of you. God looks at the parade from above, all the twists and turns it might or might not take. We have free will, so there are many possibilities in what choice we will make. Time isn’t linear and it is multifaceted. So God knows what will happen, but gives free will to us to test us to have us learn and to decide if we’re good or not. Everything that has happened in humanity is free will. Our life and what happens to us depends on who appears in our life, what events happen in front of us, etc. our free will is created by how we are raised and our environment. God knows what we’ll do but he wants us to still figure out our own decisions on our own and to make our own choice through free will. Free will is essentially the test. If you didn’t study for a quiz, a teacher knows you might flunk, but they give you it anyway to grade you. And god gives us free will to choose our fate and will decide our afterlife accordingly. Our free will is still in our control because the timeline can have many possible direction like a road with millions of paths ahead.

also god can take away our free will, but he refuses to take it away, so he is stil all powerful.

Also, we can’t have free will if we aren’t able to make bad or evil choices. The reason god allows evil to exist is because the one thing humans desire the most is freedom, and to suggest that god shouldn’t allow evil is just saying that he should control us like puppets and decide our choices between good and evil like a controller in a video game. If we’re going to have free will (and accordingly freedom) we’ll need to be able to have the choice to do evil deeds. Without that ability, we have no free will, are controlled like puppets and thus have no freedom. As we have free will, which makes us liberated from puppet control, evil will inevitably happen, but with evil happening, bad things happen in this world, and through bad things society learns, and thus, we have nothing to lose by allowing cancer and other pain in this world, increasing the amount of potential knowledge and strength humans can have which is good for humans. It’s good for us to have pain and cancer and death in this world because it helps us work hard and be strong. In fact, this type of shit is what will help you s

Also if we don’t have the abilityto be evil then our good deeds have no meaning. Would you rather have a wife who is good to you because she genuinely wanted to or one who is because it’s her only ability?

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JMOcgRB8HX8


And sure people could do bad deeds in heaven, but evil ones don’t go to heaven. They don’t have an afterlife. So the problems in earth caused by evil ones don’t exist in heaven.

also, a world where pain and sadness doesn’t exist isn’t even possible to work. It’s like imaging a world where 1+1=3. Things have to make sense and work
 
The paradox of god is more like this.

God wants to take away the evil or is against the evil.

1) He wants but he can't.
Then it is not god cause he is not almighty.
2) He can but he does not want to.
Then it is not God because he is envious.
3) He does not want and he can't.
Not almighty and envious.
4) He wants and he can.
Then where all the evil comes from?

Basically, if god is almighty and he wants to remove the evil, where does the evil comes from?

But if there is the evil, and there is evil, then it's case 1 2 3, and he cannot be god.

God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?
 
1 - Looking for self control
2 - Looking for a different response to the action & so another path taken
3 - Abusive Chad love, the definition of love is different; to be ignored is cold but to be present somehow even if it is hurtful is love.

Of course he could just be a kid looking at an ant hill on a sunny day with a magnifying glass or a farmer seeding his field that never came back or the crop is self regulated & the harvest is the energy which is at its best when given the flavour of negativity, suffering & despair.
 
Of course he could just be a kid looking at an ant hill on a sunny day with a magnifying glass or a farmer seeding his field that never came back or the crop is self regulated & the harvest is the energy which is at its best when given the flavour of negativity, suffering & despair.

Very compelling description ngl
Also makes it easy to imagine how a universal power could simply be whimsical rather than malicious.
 
Very compelling description ngl
Also makes it easy to imagine how a universal power could simply be whimsical rather than malicious.
I've come to the conclusion small concise bullet points are better than wall of text separated by paragraph essays in terms of getting noticed in the smartphone era, gone are the days of novels expanding upon subject matter with sources cited. You'll just get tl;dr over & over.

Now just produce a zinger & a picture.

No wonder Autistics fail to get over socially or mainstream with the laser focus inner workings meticulously scrutinised over level of observation & detail espoused. It's far beyond the attention span or understanding of the majority. Different minds may as well be speaking different languages.
 
Last edited:
I've come to the conclusion small concise bullet points are better than wall of text separated by paragraph essays in terms of getting noticed in the smartphone era, gone are the days of novels expanding upon subject matter with sources cited.

Now just produce a zinger & a picture.

No wonder Autistics fail to get over socially or mainstream with the laser focus inner workings meticulously scrutinised over level of observation & detail espoused.

That and people looking to discredit any arguments always jump to the "TL;DR" or "blah blah blah" mocking.
But wall of text even separated by paragraphs has generally never been a popular way of making a point on the internet unless you are trying to share something that is groundbreaking and warrants finer details.
 
That and people looking to discredit any arguments always jump to the "TL;DR" or "blah blah blah" mocking.
But wall of text even separated by paragraphs has generally never been a popular way of making a point on the internet unless you are trying to share something that is groundbreaking and warrants finer details.
I find autism is trapped at either end of that spectrum, one end being sperg that makes retarded noise before the thought statements blurted out or overly tuned in fine point detail literature out of a scholars book shelf covered in dust.
 

Similar threads

Logic55
Replies
13
Views
270
gotet
gotet
Samurai
Replies
90
Views
2K
Darkday
Darkday
edger0uter
Replies
47
Views
1K
Ahnfeltia
Ahnfeltia
AsiaCel
Replies
39
Views
974
R(p)apist1488
R(p)apist1488

Users who are viewing this thread

shape1
shape2
shape3
shape4
shape5
shape6
Back
Top