Blackpill Religious-cels, i will convert to being a believer in god if any of you can solve the EPICUREAN PARADOX.

[IncelKing]

1 - Looking for self control
2 - Looking for a different response to the action & so another path taken
3 - Abusive Chad love, the definition of love is different; to be ignored is cold but to be present somehow even if it is hurtful is love.

There was literally NO NEED for god to test our "self-control", God can do WHATEVER HE WANTS. As an OMNIPOTENT ENTITY, God has the power to write the rules so If God WANTS, he could just create a world WITHOUT pain/suffering and death in the first place, yet he intentionally createda world WITH pain/suffering and death which he justifies as being necessary to facilitate his test of our 'self-control', when he could have avoided creating that test in the first-place.

So if pain/suffering and death exists, IT'S BECAUSE THATS WHAT GOD WANTED.

Besides, How can you find self-control when your life is heavily shaped by factors OUT OF YOUR CONTROL- GENETICS (physical attractiveness, physical/mental disabilities (if applicable), IQ, social intelligence) and ENVIRONMENT(the material wealth/influence of the family you're born into; what values you are raised/indoctrinated to believe in etc.)

A perma-virgin incel will be more likely to resort to rape than an attractive male who has had consensual sex on multiple occasions with women who were attracted to him.

A boy growing up in poverty will be more likely to join gangs and resort to crime to provide for himself and his family than a boy born in an upper-class family who have the the money to send him to the best schools and the connections to find high-level jobs for him.


Free will is nothing but the ILLUSION OF CHOICE between "good" and "evil", seeing as though our choices are influenced by our circumstances which determine what possibilities even exist for us to choose from in the first place.

So the only plausible explanation for an ALL-POWERFUL and ALL-KNOWING being to create a test based on rules HE HAS THE POWER TO WRITE in order to discover answers HE ALREADY KNOWS, is that LIFE is just a "GAME" for God, and we are the performers FOR HIS ENTERTAINMENT

 

[Tenshi]

It's impossible, the thread will be ignored.

 

[Deleted member 140]

You can't convince godcels cause they've been bluepilled either since birth, or by people around them or the (((media))).

"Just shower and be confident bro"

"Just believe in god bro"

Both these are the exact same thing, and no evidence for either. It's just that swallowing the god-doesn't-exist-andyourlifeismeaningless-pill is way more brutal for godcels than the blackpill.

 

[IncelKing]

The argument is based on shaky foundations.
"Evil exists." - Does it exist? Many ethics philosophers believe it does not.

I agree that there is no such thing as "good" and "evil", that these are social constructs and that everything in life falls under two categories: NATURAL or UN-NATURAL.

However, Although the concept of evil may be a figment of imagination, it is related to pain/suffering and death WHICH ACTUALLY EXIST.

"Evil" may just be a VIRTUAL LABEL, but it is used in reference to REAL CRITERIA.

 

[Pengwin]

I agree that there is no such thing as "good" and "evil", that these are social constructs and that everything in life falls under two categories: NATURAL or UN-NATURAL.

However, Although the concept of evil may be a figment of imagination, it is related to pain/suffering and death WHICH ACTUALLY EXIST.

"Evil" may just be a VIRTUAL LABEL, but it is used in reference to REAL CRITERIA.

God is the creator of all things, and all things are created for a purpose. Therefore, God created the concept of what is evil and what is good for a purpose. We believe that this life is a test where we must do our best to avoid evil and enjoin what is good. In the end we will all be judged, and evil will be met with true justice (however God sees fit for that individual). The question is flawed because it suggests that God may either lack ability or some moral code where he just doesn't care if evil takes place. The question ignores the fact that he created the very concept of evil for a purpose, and will address evil with appropriate justice.

Yeah this whole premise is assumption.

This is weak, just weak as the paradox, '“Can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it?”. Assumption that God bounded by physic or word construct.

 

[M12Comic]

I like the color coded text it helps me understand it better

 

[Deleted member 20790]

1. That's not an argument, its a pointless statement

2. By that logic let me know how getting fucked in the ass goes, you haven't tried it so you can't dismiss the idea of it just yet lol

Did someone say miserable asshole?

 

[youthislife]

Your premise is completely wrong. In the muslim faith we don't believe God is all loving. Allah has 99 names, one of which is "the Avenger" and another one which translates to "the Distressor, the Harmer" . His love is conditional.
Pretty sure this is a regurgitation of what your master blkpillpress already posted. If God loves all then he loves whores, you think I would want any part of a religion that believes that? Your arguments only work on Christianity.

Yeah look how great the enlightenment turned out. Legalise pre-marital sex> create tinder > Chad fucks thousands of roasties while you rot.

 

[Reprobus]

In Abrahamic religions God is typically given 3 qualities: ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, ALL LOVING.
Lets assume God exists, for the sake of argument.

1. If God truly is ALL KNOWING, then there is no need to test us as he knows every Action we're going to perform before we even perform them, he knows every possible series of events at every point in time and space, why would he test WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS?

If God doesnt know what we're going to do due to which he needs to test us, then that means that GOD ISN'T ALL KNOWING.

2. If God is ALL POWERFUL, then it is very possible that not only does he KNOW every action each of us will take in our lifespan, he may even be CONTROLLING our actions. If God IS RESPONSIBLE for bringing us into the world under CIRCUMSTANCES of HIS CHOOSING, then its possible that God IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE for the ACTIONS we take in our lifespan. For all we know, we're just puppets and God is pulling our strings. If God controls our actions and is manipulating us to do what he wants assuming god is ALL-POWERFUL, then that means FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST. There is no reason to test us IF WE LACK THE FREE WILL TO MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES. We are basically no different to an AI in a robot, operating and functioning in accordance to lines of code written by the programmer (GOD).

If god can't control our actions due to which he needs to "test us", then GOD ISN'T ALL POWERFUL.


If neither of those 2 scenarios are true, in other words If god really is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL, yet he creates a world of pain and suffering for no reason the only logical conclusion is that:

GOD ISN'T ALL LOVING.

Pain and Suffering exist for GOD'S ENTERTAINMENT. Emotional human beings like to project their own emotions onto their idea of the concept of "God", but if god exists, he's most likely a cold and emotionless psychopath.

I’m agnostic but I lean towards Christianity, I remember in the Bible there was a passage speaking about how humans can not understand the way god works, so any logic to prove him wrong wouldn’t even be right because you’re not in his realm

 

[Levcel]

Christianity is based. Too based. That's why it's wrong.

Imagine being rewarded for good behaviour, being able to delegate your problems to the most wise entity, being able to nagotiate your fate


And some ideas are REALLY based

Nofap is one idea

Adultery is a sin

Pride is a sin

Vanity is a sin

Murdering is a sin

An irl Christian society would be based

 

[mänline]

God could just give birth to every living being in a world devoid of pain and suffering in the first place, where all living beings are immortal. In other words, god CAN just send us all to heaven (by default) if he wants to do so because he is ALL-POWERFUL.

So despite his ABILITY to create a world WITHOUT pain/suffering and death, he decided to create one WITH IT instead.

god is evil buddy boyo.

No, he can't. He can't violate his own attributes (in this case: righteousness and holyness) and deny himself. God is all-mighty, but not beyond a specific logic. It is like the same, that God can't create a stone, that is so big and heavy, that he cannot lift him. That's nonsense.

God created the possibility of evil by turning away from him trough free will, but declared this state of free will and the possibility to turn from him as "very good".(Genesis 1:31) Since God defines what good and evil, nobody can say, that creating the possibility of evil itself is evil.

Also there's no fucking reason for him to even create a world of free will with suffering, God literally could have just created a world of only pleasure and no pain, and let us all just go about enjoying existence, nobody was holding a gun to God's head and forcing him to create a world with suffering to test anything, he clearly wanted to do it for ENTERTAINMENT
[...]
Exactly, just as I said above, God could literally have just made us all in heaven to live amazing immortal lives with no pain or suffering, but he WANTED to see us fucking suffer

There was no reason to create us at all. To challenge the idea that God has fun at a suffering creation, we can further make certain observations: When we accept, that we are made in his image, which means we share for example the same impressions and feelings we don't like see the suffering of a fellow human, that we could assume it for God too.
Then we have to look at the one, who revealed to us God the father. When you look at Jesus, you know how God is. Jesus wept about Jerusalem and the rejection of him, that they missed the opportunity to be saved from both (earthly and eternal) destruction.

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9

He wants that everyone gets saved, he has no pleasure in the death of an evil person:

"Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel? " Ezekiel 33:11

All powerful doesn’t mean he has to actively use his powers, or that he is using them on you.

Loving someone doesn’t mean spoiling them out of every inconvenience.

Good thoughts.

When God shall end the evil in this world with one move, then he has to kill you and me instantly, because you and I are wicked in our heart trough the sin, who has grown and grown in generations after Adam.
What was the first thing, after man was away from God? A murder!

And I could also add the point of the muslimcels that God is not all-loving. That "the Lord hates..." or hated someone or something is often in the bible - even when it is often meant as preferring something to another. But also a clear disguise of the wicked sinner.

Psalm 11

1 In the LORD I take refuge;
how can you say to my soul,
“Flee like a bird to your mountain,
2 for behold, the wicked bend the bow;
they have fitted their arrow to the string
to shoot in the dark at the upright in heart;
3 if the foundations are destroyed,
what can the righteous do?”1
4 The LORD is in his holy temple;
the LORD's throne is in heaven;
his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man.
5 The LORD tests the righteous,
but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
6 Let him rain coals on the wicked;
fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
7 For the LORD is righteous;
he loves righteous deeds;
the upright shall behold his face.

Psalm 5

Lead Me in Your Righteousness
To the choirmaster: for the flutes. A Psalm of David.
1 Give ear to my words, O LORD;
consider my groaning.
2 Give attention to the sound of my cry,
my King and my God,
for to you do I pray.
3 O LORD, in the morning you hear my voice;
in the morning I prepare a sacrifice for you1 and watch.
4 For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil may not dwell with you.
5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
you hate all evildoers.
6 You destroy those who speak lies;
the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
7 But I, through the abundance of your steadfast love,
will enter your house.
I will bow down toward your holy temple
in the fear of you.
8 Lead me, O LORD, in your righteousness
because of my enemies;
make your way straight before me.
9 For there is no truth in their mouth;
their inmost self is destruction;
their throat is an open grave;
they flatter with their tongue.
10 Make them bear their guilt, O God;
let them fall by their own counsels;
because of the abundance of their transgressions cast them out,
for they have rebelled against you.
11 But let all who take refuge in you rejoice;
let them ever sing for joy,
and spread your protection over them,
that those who love your name may exult in you.
12 For you bless the righteous, O LORD;
you cover him with favor as with a shield.

 

[BlkPillPres]

No, he can't. He can't violate his own attributes (in this case: righteousness and holyness) and deny himself. God is all-mighty, but not beyond a specific logic. It is like the same, that God can't create a stone, that is so big and heavy, that he cannot lift him. That's nonsense.

God created the possibility of evil by turning away from him trough free will, but declared this state of free will and the possibility to turn from him as "very good".(Genesis 1:31) Since God defines what good and evil, nobody can say, that creating the possibility of evil itself is evil

Idiot its like you don't get the point, there is no reason for him to create a world of suffering, we could have had free will AND ETERNAL BLISS, in a world without suffering where everyone can get what they want, nobody has any reason to commit crimes, they don't need the "free will" option to rape, kill, steal, etc when everyone can get anything they want, you can just pick a fruit off of a tree and it turns into the woman of your dreams lol

So your argument makes no sense at all, God is all powerful, he could have created a world so perfect, nobody would even think about doing something "evil" because they'd be completely satisfied

There was no reason to create us at all

This is nothing but a deflection, it has nothing to do with the argument

It's a non-argument, I agree there was no reason to create us, but the point still stands that he could have created us in world without suffering, so he chose between those two options and DECIDED TO GO WITH A WORLD OF SUFFERING, you can't just gloss over that choice

An all powerful God can create a world with infinite resources and no suffering/yearning, everybody could get their fill, HE WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to design things like pain, hunger, lust, thirst, etc to fit into a world of suffering and yearning

When we accept, that we are made in his image, which means we share for example the same impressions and feelings we don't like see the suffering of a fellow human, that we could assume it for God too

Except that we do enjoy the suffering of others, there are two animals known to inflict pain for enjoyment, humans and another intelligent animal, dolphins, so it seems like the more intelligent the animal, the more likely it is to enjoy the suffering of others

 

[IncelPolitik]

I went to catholic school, was heavily involved in church life all through high school and college... swallowing the non-existence of god-pill was quite possibly the most jarring and agonizing pill I ever swallowed... honestly, almost killed myself when I came to the sober realization there was not a "plan" in store for me and that I was just a metaphorical tumbleweed traversing the hard, dry desert of life with a wind that was indifferent to my dreams/hopes taking me any which way serendipity decided.

There's an ugly feud between trad con conservative twitter and WOKE MGTOW/Incel Twitter because of this, belief in G-D blinds them from the truth of life.

Sometimes I wish I was not cursed with this knowledge and I could back to believing in G-D (I can't even bring myself to not fully type out G-D b/c in Catholic school they teach you not to spell out G-D because then you would be "saying his name in vain", it's a case of old habits die hard.

 

[BlkPillPres]

Imagine being rewarded for good behaviour, being able to delegate your problems to the most wise entity, being able to nagotiate your fate

1. Whats considered "good" is the exact opposite of what you are biologically hardwired to do (the irony)

2. No point delegating your problems to an entity that never directly responds and you have to try and interpret sights and events in life as "signs" of that entity responding JFL

3. There is no negotiating of fate, what the hell are you talking about, you do what God says or you get tortured for eternity, where do you see room for negotiation?

You are on the nth level of indoctrination

Nofap is one idea

Adultery is a sin

Pride is a sin

Vanity is a sin

Murdering is a sin

An irl Christian society would be based

NoFap - Its a placebo, it doesn't do anything, and if God had simply created a perfect world nobody would be sex starved so porn would never have been created

Adultery - Humans dislike this regardless, you don't need a religion to make this a bad thing

Pride - Very ironic seeing as religious people are the most prideful, pride is inherent to religious beliefs because it entails you seeing yourself as "chosen by God" and all others who aren't of the faith are "sinners" while you are a "servant of God", if you think that doesn't pump up peoples ego you are delusional

Vanity - Would not be an issue if God had simply created a perfect world

Murdering - Same as above

 

[Deleted member 301]

View attachment 286999

 

[BlkPillPres]

I’m agnostic but I lean towards Christianity, I remember in the Bible there was a passage speaking about how humans can not understand the way god works, so any logic to prove him wrong wouldn’t even be right because you’re not in his realm

That is nothing but a bullshit cop out 1+1=2 no matter what "realm" you are in

Pain "hurting" because it was DESIGNED TO "HURT" is something any human can comprehend, you don't have to be in any other realm, you feel pain everyday

So its really simple:
IF GOD IS ALL POWERFUL, AND HE COULD HAVE CREATED A WORLD WITHOUT PAIN, HE WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO CREATE A WORLD WITH PAIN SO THAT HE COULD SEE IT HAPPEN

 

[mänline]

Ok Pres, then you can speculate further why he didn't create such world. I told you why the idea of enjoying suffering as motivation is very unlikely with the God of the bible.

we could have had free will AND ETERNAL BLISS, in a world without suffering where everyone can get what they want

Garden of Eden was like this and still they wanted this one forbidden fruit.
The ability to choose between wrong and right differentiate us from the rest of creation. Love is a decision. And God loves and when we are created in his image we can also love. Without the possibility to rebel it would be not love to obey him.

 

[BlkPillPres]

Garden of Eden was like this and still they wanted this one forbidden fruit

Stop lying, the Garden wasn't like that, they were denied knowledge and then presented with a tree with fruit that grants them that knowledege, that was the first domino God put there on purpose to start off his world of suffering

If the Garden of Eden was like I described THEY'D ALREADY HAVE ALL THE KNOWLEDGE

Being ignorant is not part of a "perfect world", you have to be an idiot to think that

Without the possibility to rebel it would be not love to obey him.

Nobody loves to OBEY anyone retard, are you seriously hearing yourself?

Take away the threat of hell and restart this world, where God simply begs people to "do what he commands" with no threat of eternal torture, and watch as nobody gives a fuck about OBEYING and nobody is "loving it"

 

[mänline]

Nobody loves to OBEY anyone retard, are you seriously hearing yourself?

That is your sinful wicked nature speaking.

That is what love is about. Take yourself back to the greater good and in the end for our own good. That is how relationships are.
The things he commands are good things.

I will think about the first part. Good night.

 

[BlkPillPres]

That is your sinful wicked nature speaking.

That is what love is about. Take yourself back to the greater good and in the end for our own good. That is how relationships are.
The things he commands are good things.

I will think about the first part. Good night.

You are using circular logic, this is something that religious people always do because they have no self awareness, you literally don't have the ability to think for yourself, you're barely even human lol

Sin only exists because God created a world with the concept of sin to begin with, that's what makes your logic circular within the context of this argument

If God had created a perfect world, there'd be no "sin", because satisfying the desires GOD DESIGNED YOU TO HAVE would not be considered a "bad thing" and there would be enough for everyone to be satisfied

AT LEAST TRY AND THINK FOR YOURSELF

 

[FlamingCel]

We would like that there Is only happiness,but god wants us to earn it

 

[SuperMario64DS]

Yes, mind altering drugs making you see crazy shit is definitely a logical reason to believe in something

I really don't believe in the Christian God in the traditional sense like dogmatic fundamentalists do

But there is a natural spiritual phenomenon, present in pretty much every single religion and spiritual movement, from normie ones like Catholicism or Islam to edgy ones like Wicca

It's where a person realizes they aren't entitled to anything, life isn't fair at all, and you would not at all exist without this bigger thing. People come to closer (not completely) terms with who they are as people and where they are in life, and they accept it to a great degree, knowing they are part of some bigger process that they are invisibly connected to. This "bigger process" literally reaches out unnaturally to you through people and other circumstances like a flat ocean that literally decides for no reason at all to spin in circles and splash you in the face, and you know at that point that whatever is bigger, it definitely is something more than just materiality, whatever it is.

DMT does enable one to go through this experience in a very visual way. It's 100% real. Just make sure you know what you are doing. You don't need DMT to do it; you just need to find SOME religion or spiritual thing that forces you to clear your mind and focus on something that isn't in the ordinary course of life; Gregorian or Byzantine chants, candles, incense, and art; bowls of incense offered to a statue with Asian hums; Native American tribal dances with special herbal solutions; Islamic dancing and prostrations with fluctuating arabic chant with abstract patterns all over the wall etc.

I'm 100% convinced that the reason religions developed was to artificially invoke this psychological experience so people could "grow up" as much as they could.

 

[tanfeo]

For question 1. It's basically saying he knows what's going to happen but you chose to do it, you are able to experience it so you can have a recollection of it when you meet him in the afterlife and have to explain yourself when put on trial. BTW in the trial you don't have control of your body, it's just a vessel that reveals all truth. Basically for you to know why your entering hell/heaven.

For question 2: Nope he say's he has given free will.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gWGbKaJml8

JFL for posting a video of a FAKE mufti.
That guy has no actual status in Islam and is a tool and creation of the kuffar.

 

[FinnCel]

1. Why assume God tests us?
2. If God is all powerful, it doesn't mean he automatically tampers with everything. In fact, I think if he exists, he barely does because of free will


Also think about the problem of evil.
Do you believe in evil? If you do, then there is something good. And God is good

If only nature exists, then there is no good or evil and your question doesn't even make sense

 

[The Abyss]

Did someone say miserable asshole?

I'd imagine an asshole would be miserable if it's getting prodded, poked & about to be boarded by a rear admiral against its will.

 

[Levcel]

1. Whats considered "good" is the exact opposite of what you are biologically hardwired to do (the irony)

2. No point delegating your problems to an entity that never directly responds and you have to try and interpret sights and events in life as "signs" of that entity responding JFL

3. There is no negotiating of fate, what the hell are you talking about, you do what God says or you get tortured for eternity, where do you see room for negotiation?

You are on the nth level of indoctrination



NoFap - Its a placebo, it doesn't do anything, and if God had simply created a perfect world nobody would be sex starved so porn would never have been created

Adultery - Humans dislike this regardless, you don't need a religion to make this a bad thing

Pride - Very ironic seeing as religious people are the most prideful, pride is inherent to religious beliefs because it entails you seeing yourself as "chosen by God" and all others who aren't of the faith are "sinners" while you are a "servant of God", if you think that doesn't pump up peoples ego you are delusional

Vanity - Would not be an issue if God had simply created a perfect world

Murdering - Same as above

Oh I don't belive in God, I just wish he was real

 

[The Abyss]

This thread be like

 

[TheBasedCel]

Tbh this theory falls at the why does God not prevent evil part, that's like saying seeing a foid getting raped and not helping her makes you evil. Or a father disciplining his child with beatings makes him evil as well.

 

[IncelKing]

1. Why assume God tests us?

if god isn't testing us on anything, then why is there pain/suffering and death, what purpose does it serve?

Also think about the problem of evil.
Do you believe in evil? If you do, then there is something good. And God is good

If only nature exists, then there is no good or evil and your question doesn't even make sense

As I said before:

I agree that there is no such thing as "good" and "evil", that these are social constructs and that everything in life falls under two categories: NATURAL or UN-NATURAL.

However, Although the concept of evil may be a figment of imagination, it is related to pain/suffering and death WHICH ACTUALLY EXIST.

"Evil" may just be a VIRTUAL LABEL, but it is used in reference to REAL CRITERIA.

Yes, ONLY NATURE EXISTS, AND GOD IS ITS CREATOR.

The point is, GOD COULD HAVE MADE ONLY PLEASURE/ENJOYMENT AND LIFE AS PART OF NATURE
INSTEAD, HE ALSO MADE PAIN/SUFFERING AND DEATH AS PART OF NATURE.

dont conflate your inferior reading comprehension skills with my question not making sense lol

 

[Eternal Observer]

This is a waste of time man. Religion is the world's oldest coping mechanism to deal with existential lonliness and purposelesness, nothing more. If there is a God, a book rewritten and revised many times by MAN will never be able to adequately describe its nature.

 

[FinnCel]

Yes, only nature exists and God is its creator.
The point is, god could have made ONLY Pleasure/Enjoyment and Life as part of NATURE
Instead he ALSO made Pain/Suffering and Death as part of NATURE.

But isn't God supernatural and thus not natural?
As in if the universe had a beginning, then it had a non-natural cause

OK you seem to misunderstand God's nature. He's good.
Therefore, our concept of good comes from his nature.
If God exists, he exists necessarily and his nature is by definition good.
The moral argument:
1. If objective moral values and duties don't exist, then God does not exist
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist
3. Therefore, God exists

So which premise do you disagree with?

 

[IncelKing]

But isn't God supernatural and thus not natural?
As in if the universe had a beginning, then it had a non-natural cause

Yes, that is literally what i said.

I agree that there is no such thing as "good" and "evil", that these are social constructs and that everything in life falls under two categories: NATURAL or UN-NATURAL.

In this case,the UNIVERSE is the CREATION and falls in the NATURAL CATEGORY.
GOD is the CREATOR and falls in the UN-NATURAL category.

OK you seem to misunderstand God's nature. He's good.
Therefore, our concept of good comes from his nature.
If God exists, he exists necessarily and his nature is by definition good.
The moral argument:
1. If objective moral values and duties don't exist, then God does not exist
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist
3. Therefore, God exists

So which premise do you disagree with?

Objective morality is an oxymoron.

Let's take homosexuality for example, lets say you ask the question "what is your moral standing/viewpoint in relation to homosexuality?"

Lets keep the variables of ERA and PLACE constant, and change the PERSON. In other words, assume that you conduct a survey with 2 individuals (A christian and a liberal non-Christian) living in the same era (year of 2020) and same place (same town/city). The christian will believe that "homosexuality IS immoral" whereas the liberal non-Christian person will disagree. Morality is largely determined by an individuals VALUES/PRINCIPLES, which will differ from PERSON TO PERSON.

Now lets keep the PERSON and ERA constant, and change the PLACE. In other words, assume you ask this question to a Middle-Eastern person, who moved to the west at the age of 5 and basically grew up in the west.They are quite likely to say that "homosexuality ISN'T immoral" due to growing up in a liberal democratic society which has indoctrinated them to adopt certain beliefs (including normalisation/acceptence of faggotry). Now imagine that their parents never brought them to the west and instead they grew up in Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc. and lived in a conservative, authoritarian society. Now if you ask them the same question, they will almost definitely say that "homosexuality IS immoral" due to being raised to live in accordance to Sharia law. Morality is largely influenced by SOCIAL CONDITIONING, the "nature" of which will differ from PLACE TO PLACE.

Now lets keep the PLACE and PERSON the same, and change the ERA. Lets say you ask this question to a white person in the USA in 2020 They will say "homosexuality ISN'T immoral", now if that same person was instead living in USA in 1820, a time when gays were likely persecuted and seen as second-class citizens , they will give the opposite answer. Morality differs from ERA TO ERA.


I don't believe in god because there is no evidence to suggest that he exists. But my disbelief in "objective morality" has nothing to do with my disbelief in "god", its to do with the fact that: Morality is completely SUBJECTIVE. It CHANGES from PERSON TO PERSON, PLACE TO PLACE, ERA TO ERA

 

[Animecel2D]

damn thats a lot of words tbh

 

[SryMyEnglish]

View attachment 286999

Religious phrases about ALL GOD just sound cool, its like my schizo pseudophilosophical rants (you could hear them sometimes if you were in bloc) they just sound cool to me

 

[FinnCel]

@IncelKing
Not everyone senses the world the same way with their physical senses. Yet, you still don't deny the existence of the physical world.
Morality has been found throughout ages and is still in the progress of happening.

I'm still not sure what your argument is against God's existence

 

[Vakiadia]

In Abrahamic religions God is typically given 3 qualities: ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, ALL LOVING.
Lets assume God exists, for the sake of argument.

1. If God truly is ALL KNOWING, then there is no need to test us as he knows every Action we're going to perform before we even perform them, he knows every possible series of events at every point in time and space, why would he test WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS?

If God doesnt know what we're going to do due to which he needs to test us, then that means that GOD ISN'T ALL KNOWING.

2. If God is ALL POWERFUL, then it is very possible that not only does he KNOW every action each of us will take in our lifespan, he may even be CONTROLLING our actions. If God IS RESPONSIBLE for bringing us into the world under CIRCUMSTANCES of HIS CHOOSING, then its possible that God IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE for the ACTIONS we take in our lifespan. For all we know, we're just puppets and God is pulling our strings. If God controls our actions and is manipulating us to do what he wants assuming god is ALL-POWERFUL, then that means FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST. There is no reason to test us IF WE LACK THE FREE WILL TO MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES. We are basically no different to an AI in a robot, operating and functioning in accordance to lines of code written by the programmer (GOD).

If god can't control our actions due to which he needs to "test us", then GOD ISN'T ALL POWERFUL.


If neither of those 2 scenarios are true, in other words If god really is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL, yet he creates a world of pain and suffering for no reason the only logical conclusion is that:

GOD ISN'T ALL LOVING.

Pain and Suffering exist for GOD'S ENTERTAINMENT. Emotional human beings like to project their own emotions onto their idea of the concept of "God", but if god exists, he's most likely a cold and emotionless psychopath.

God isn’t all loving in the human sense

 

[IncelKing]

God isn’t all loving in the human sense

JFL now you are moving the goalposts by stretching the definition of love.

Love is a human concept, hence you can only analyze the concept of love from the human sense

 

[IncelKing]

Idiot its like you don't get the point, there is no reason for him to create a world of suffering, we could have had free will AND ETERNAL BLISS, in a world without suffering where everyone can get what they want, nobody has any reason to commit crimes, they don't need the "free will" option to rape, kill, steal, etc when everyone can get anything they want, you can just pick a fruit off of a tree and it turns into the woman of your dreams lol

So your argument makes no sense at all, God is all powerful, he could have created a world so perfect, nobody would even think about doing something "evil" because they'd be completely satisfied



This is nothing but a deflection, it has nothing to do with the argument

It's a non-argument, I agree there was no reason to create us, but the point still stands that he could have created us in world without suffering, so he chose between those two options and DECIDED TO GO WITH A WORLD OF SUFFERING, you can't just gloss over that choice

An all powerful God can create a world with infinite resources and no suffering/yearning, everybody could get their fill, HE WENT OUT OF HIS WAY to design things like pain, hunger, lust, thirst, etc to fit into a world of suffering and yearning

Exactly.

God could have prevented us from even having biological urges and physical needs, by not placing our CONSCIOUSNESS (made of ANTI-MATTER) into a BODY (made of MATTER).

God could have enabled our consciousness to exist beyond the PHYSICAL REALM, in some type of "virtual" Matrix where we get to experience "simulated" physical enjoyment

 

[SubhumanAbomination]

In Abrahamic religions God is typically given 3 qualities: ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL, ALL LOVING.
Lets assume God exists, for the sake of argument.

1. If God truly is ALL KNOWING, then there is no need to test us as he knows every Action we're going to perform before we even perform them, he knows every possible series of events at every point in time and space, why would he test WHAT HE ALREADY KNOWS?

If God doesnt know what we're going to do due to which he needs to test us, then that means that GOD ISN'T ALL KNOWING.

2. If God is ALL POWERFUL, then it is very possible that not only does he KNOW every action each of us will take in our lifespan, he may even be CONTROLLING our actions. If God IS RESPONSIBLE for bringing us into the world under CIRCUMSTANCES of HIS CHOOSING, then its possible that God IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE for the ACTIONS we take in our lifespan. For all we know, we're just puppets and God is pulling our strings. If God controls our actions and is manipulating us to do what he wants assuming god is ALL-POWERFUL, then that means FREE WILL DOESN'T EXIST. There is no reason to test us IF WE LACK THE FREE WILL TO MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES. We are basically no different to an AI in a robot, operating and functioning in accordance to lines of code written by the programmer (GOD).

If god can't control our actions due to which he needs to "test us", then GOD ISN'T ALL POWERFUL.


If neither of those 2 scenarios are true, in other words If god really is ALL KNOWING and ALL POWERFUL, yet he creates a world of pain and suffering for no reason the only logical conclusion is that:

GOD ISN'T ALL LOVING.

Pain and Suffering exist for GOD'S ENTERTAINMENT. Emotional human beings like to project their own emotions onto their idea of the concept of "God", but if god exists, he's most likely a cold and emotionless psychopath.

For the first point, God knows what will happen and how everything will play out, which makes perfect sense since if God can't control destiny, he's not omniscient, thus not even a God. As to why he tests you while still knowing what will happen, is simple to answer really. Knowing what will happen doesn't mean robbing someone out of choice. So in conclusion, you have a freewill to do whatever you want, but God knows how your freewill will play out, still you're the one who decides what to do and what not to do.

For the second point, God is all poweful indeed, but he just chooses not to control our actions due to the first point made, which is to give us a freewill. So saying "if God is all powerful, why doesn't he do this?" Is a fallacy since God can do whatever he wants and wills and it doesn't change the fact that he's all powerful.

For the third point, pain and suffering isn't for God's entertainment of course. First, you make this stuff up, second you assume that God gives us too much credit as humans. Whether you live or die or do whatever, God would still be totally unaffected. Also you confuse being loving for doing everything for you according to your own desires. Your brain is extremely limited as your wisdom and perception, thus you can never know the point of God's action no matter how they appear to you, no matter how illogical they seem to you, you will never be capable of comprehending them as a human since you're really limited. Also were you promised a great life when you were born by God? Why do you think just because God exists we're owed anything? You don't even own the body you have and if you argue that he created you without your consent thus you're entitled to a great life, then the response is being born at all can't be your decision since you can't consent to something you have no idea about and have never experienced if the first place, but you can decide what to do with your life which is enough according to God to live as a human.

 

[BlkPillPres]

that's like saying seeing a foid getting raped and not helping her makes you evil

No its like saying you created the act of sex itself, made it so that men crave it so much they would want to rape to satiate the desire, and then do nothing to stop said foid from being rape

 

[SubhumanAbomination]

No its like saying you created the act of sex itself, made it so that men crave it so much they would want to rape to satiate the desire, and then do nothing to stop said foid from being rape

Well i can use a spoon to kill you by stabbing you with it, does that mean we should stop producing spoons?

I mean everything is a double edged sword depending on how you use it. It's ironic how you complain about being controlled by God and not having a freewill to do whatever you want then you proceed to complain because the path of evil is available for you to walk into.

 

[BlkPillPres]

JFL now you are moving the goalposts by stretching the definition of love.

Love is a human concept, hence you can only analyze the concept of love from the human sense

JFL exactly, it makes no sense, all these guys do is move the goal post

Like when I quoted a verse from the bible proving that God violates free will all the time

THE FUCKING RETARD SAID THAT GOD WOULD SPECIFICALLY NOT JUDGE THE MAN FOR THAT INSTANCE AND THAT INSTANCE ALONE

Every religious person I talk to is a dishonest piece of shit that will just keep moving the goal post and coming up with personal rules to escape the fact that God is not good, they just can't accept reality

Well i can use a spoon to kill you by stabbing you with it, does that mean we should stop producing spoons?

Again none of the analogies you retards use even fits the scenario because GOD IS ALL POWERFUL

There is no reason for us to reproduce via sex OTHER THAN GOD MADE IT SO, we could have reproduced via a special ceremony involving a prayer, in that universe RAPE DOESN'T EXIST, but God opted to create the universe WHERE WOMEN GET RAPED

AN ALL POWERFUL BEING HAS NO EXCUSES

I mean everything is a double edged sword depending on how you use it. It's ironic how you complain about being controlled by God not having a freewill to do whatever you want then you proceed to complain because the path of evil is available for you to walk into.

The point is evil did not have to exist, God could have created a PERFECT WORLD with UNLIMITED RESOURCES where EVERYONE GETS WHAT THEY WANT, because he is ALL POWERFUL

There is no excuse or argument you can make to defend this, literally nothing

 

[mänline]

Sin only exists because God created a world with the concept of sin to begin with, that's what makes your logic circular within the context of this argument

If God had created a perfect world, there'd be no "sin", because satisfying the desires GOD DESIGNED YOU TO HAVE would not be considered a "bad thing" and there would be enough for everyone to be satisfied

I already tried to explain, why sin was created automatically at the creation of free will and love.

And maybe, in the end, it is really the decision: Choose I knowledge to raise my self ("you will be like God") or am I satisfied with the things the creator has allowed me from which he said. Do I believe, that he is good and won't keep anything from me that's good for me. Or do I believe that he lied to me and just wants to keep me down.

@IncelKing : That people's own sets of values and morals are subjective doesn't deny the existence of a objective morality. When God is the one, who defined once what is immoral and not, then it is possible that every human being afterward made his own rules. What is variable in society is the degree of Godlessness. There are societies where it is good to eat humans. Without God's word, nobody can say for sure what good and evil ist.

 

[BlkPillPres]

For the second point, God is all poweful indeed, but he just chooses not to control our actions due to the first point made

Exodus 9:12 - "But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses"

Daniel 4:35 - "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?"

Exodus 4:11 - " "The Lord said to him, 'Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (This one was fucking brutal, God is a sadist)

Proverbs 16:1 - "The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord"

Proverbs 16:9 - "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps"

Psalms 135:6 - "Whatever the Lord pleases, HE DOES, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps"

GOD VIOLATES FREE WILL ALL THE TIME

HE IS A TYRANT

 

[SubhumanAbomination]

The point is evil did not have to exist, God could have created a PERFECT WORLD with UNLIMITED RESOURCES where EVERYONE GETS WHAT THEY WANT, because he is ALL POWERFUL

There is no excuse or argument you can make to defend this, literally nothing

Well if you actually bothered to look into Abrahamic religions instead of being ignorant, you'd have found out that we were actually created to live in heaven, but because -as always- we disobyed God, we were sent to live here in this imperfect world full of suffering. Why? It's a test to filter out who deserves to be in heaven and who doesn't. Why in God's name that guy who would be raping kids or killing people if given the choice be rewarded the same as that kind guy who helps other people? And if we were all born perfect who do nothing evil then good would be meaningless in the first place and that wouldn't be freewill at all, it would be like being robots.

Exodus 9:12 - "But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses"

Daniel 4:35 - "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?"

Exodus 4:11 - " "The Lord said to him, 'Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (This one was fucking brutal, God is a sadist)

Proverbs 16:1 - "The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord"

Proverbs 16:9 - "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps"

Psalms 135:6 - "Whatever the Lord pleases, HE DOES, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps"

GOD VIOLATES FREE WILL ALL THE TIME

HE IS A TYRANT

I'm not a Christian lol, all of this is meaningless to me. Why do you guys assume that religion = Christianity all the time?

 

[BlkPillPres]

I already tried to explain, why sin was created automatically at the creation of free will and love

Saying we have "free will" doesn't make sense either way, because ONE IS ONLY EVER FREE TO DO WHAT IS WITHIN THEIR CAPABILITIES

God gave us "free will", but made us mortal, weak, and forever at his cruel mercy

TRUE FREE WILL WOULD BE FOR GOD TO HAVE MADE US TRULY IN HIS IMAGE (AS GODS), AND SENT US OUT TO CREATE WORLDS OF OUR OWN

If I hand cuff you to a chair and tell you - "You're free to do whatever you want", I am in fact being honest, but its nothing but disingenuous semantic word games, you are only free to do what is within your capabilities, free will is inherently limited by the limitations God placed on us

So asking if we have free will IS A TRICK QUESTION TO BEGIN WITH

Of course, religious people can't think abstractly so I'd never expect a thought like this to even pop into your head, your religion forbids you to think for yourself

Either way God violates free will all the time:

Exodus 9:12 - "But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses"

Daniel 4:35 - "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?"

Exodus 4:11 - " "The Lord said to him, 'Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes him mute or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (This one was fucking brutal, God is a sadist)

Proverbs 16:1 - "The plans of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord"

Proverbs 16:9 - "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps"

Psalms 135:6 - "Whatever the Lord pleases, HE DOES, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps"

GOD VIOLATES FREE WILL ALL THE TIME

HE IS A TYRANT

Well if you actually bothered to look into Abrahamic religions instead of being ignorant, you'd have found out that we were actually created to live in heaven, but because -as always- we disobyed God

You are using circular logic, you are saying we disobeyed THE RULES HE DID NOT HAVE TO CREATE

Are you seriously that fucking retarded?, you really can't get the simple point I'm conveying

In a perfect world God would not have created any of the rules that revolve around "sin"

There'd be no "thou shall not kill" IF NOBODY COULD DIE

I don't know how else to dumb this down further for you, its like arguing with a 10 year old smh

 

[SubhumanAbomination]

You are using circular logic, you are saying we disobeyed THE RULES HE DID NOT HAVE TO CREATE

Are you seriously that fucking retarded?, you really can't get the simple point I'm conveying

In a perfect world God would not have created any of the rules that revolve around "sin"

There'd be no "thou shall not kill" IF NOBODY COULD DIE

I don't know how else to dumb this down further for you, its like arguing with a 10 year old smh

Well to make a thing clear, evil is not just actions but also intentions, in a world where people can't die, the person who would still want to kill others would still be objectively evil, just because they can't do it, doesn't mean they're good.

And also the essence of humanity is that we're not perfect but we still try to overcome our weaknesses and mistakes, that's why we're the favorite creation of God because we have such variety in the way we live and the constant battle between good and evil inside everyone of us, without that we wouldn't be humans in the first place.

Also why are you complaining about not being in a perfect world when you can just work this life and go the perfect world you've always desired? And i'm sure it would feel infinite times better than just being born perfect in a perfect world without a freewill.

 

[mänline]

Either way God violates free will all the time:

Your quoted examples are a good picture of the meeting of free will and his sovereignty. I never said we had absolute free will. Of course, it is within a range of limitations. Even God's will is limited to logic and his nature. Your example of being handcuffed in a chair is the same like your lala-wonderland, no practical free will.

It is good that he leads our ways and tongues within our free will. I know where I was without him and that he do know better than I alone.

And I say again: No one will be able to say before the throne of God, that is was God, who let him do the evil. So why talk about such theoretical questions without end?

I don't build my foundation of my own thoughts and wisdom. My wisdom is limited. I know that this answer is not only unsatisfying to you but an insult to your thinking which you adore so much to the highest. It is a spiritual battle, not an intellectual one.

1.Cor 1:20 Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn’t God made the world’s wisdom foolish?

1. Cor 3:18 No one should deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks he is wise in this age, he must become foolish so that he can become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this * world is foolishness with God, since it is written: He catches the wise in their craftiness;8 20 and again, The Lord knows that the reasonings of the wise are meaningless

2.Cor 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

1. Cor 2:6 However, we do speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age, or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.

I am willing to be corrected by a brother in Christ.

 

[BlkPillPres]

I never said we had absolute free will

Every religious person I talk to is a dishonest piece of shit that will just keep moving the goal post and coming up with personal rules to escape the fact that God is not good, they just can't accept reality

 

[BlkPillPres]

Well to make a thing clear, evil is not just actions but also intentions, in a world where people can't die, the person who would still want to kill others would still be objectively evil, just because they can't do it, doesn't mean they're good.

And also the essence of humanity is that we're not perfect but we still try to overcome our weaknesses and mistakes, that's why we're the favorite creation of God because we have such variety in the way we live and the constant battle between good and evil inside everyone of us, without that we wouldn't be humans in the first place.

Also why are you complaining about not being in a perfect world when you can just work this life and go the perfect world you've always desired? And i'm sure it would feel infinite times better than just being born perfect in a perfect world without a freewill.

Wait wait wait, I just noticed something, wtf are you doing with a femto avatar?

I don't see how moralfaggotry and femto mix

Or did you just find a "cool looking" image online and decide to use it and you have no idea what I'm talking about

How can I put it, you might as well put a fucking pentagram as your avatar, that's how ironic it is for you to have a femto avatar