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Serious Suicide is the greatest act of self-determination available to us

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Deleted member 8353

Deleted member 8353

Former Hikikomori, Aimless Pleasure Seeker
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From the moment we're born to the moment in which we die, we're tormented into slaving away just to maintain our own bodies and to avoid the suffering associated with failure to do so. In this way we're forced into accepting a set of objectives, and tortured into compliance to them. It's a game which none of us asked to play, and we probably wouldn't continue to do so if we weren't being held hostage by our own biology.

Some might say that suicide is cowardly, or that it's giving up. But really what is the end goal of life if not death? After all, our deaths are the only things which we're intrinsically entitled to just by virtue of existing. It seems to me that completing suicide would be a victory over your instincts which desperately try to keep you alive and suffering. The only way to defeat an unwinnable game is by choosing not to play it, and in doing so you triumph over an even greater struggle than existence itself. It's more difficult to self-terminate than it is to continue slaving away for access to whatever relief you can find.

There is nothing noble about enduring suffering just for the sake of doing so. Humans have an addiction to romanticizing pain, to creating heroes out of those bear their torment for as long as possible. They fight against the world to survive and procreate, but is it really a battle if they're acting in way which facilitates total submission to their torturer? Moreover, the struggle to survive is ultimately unwinnable. As a result it's pointless and void of any value, save that of whatever copes people construct for themselves to make their lifelong servitude more bearable. People go through their lives experiencing entirely avoidable pain, then go on to tell themselves that it's somehow okay because they're all suffering together, and that their sacrifice is worthy of reverence. Yet there is nobody whom this sacrifice actually benefits.

I believe that instead of glorifying our slavery, we as humans should congratulate those who managed to liberate themselves from their painful flesh shackles.
 
tbh I find the idea of being in a position where your life is immensely miserable & you physically cannot kill yourself (e.g paralyzed, on suicide watch, stuck in a psychiatric ward, etc) very disturbing
 
Depends how you view Life or what is actually the goal. The greatest self-determination is in my opinion self improvement, and then being glad with what you have achieved or got.

Also winning against instincts wouldn't be suicide, it would be ascetism and complete control over the body. Also life isn't just about "living" the longest, it's what you make out of it. It's about shaping ones life to be a enjoyable as possible and with the least amount of suffering. Suicide is just the end of every possible suffering and happiness, and maybe it's not even the end since no one knows what happens to a person after death, maybe the suffering just continues.

Goals can be very different, enjoying new inventions, reading stories, spend time with people you enjoy and so on. The world doesn't care about us humans, but we can shape it to be as enjoyable as possible, and shaping the world could be another point for life.
 
The only winning move? Not playing the rigged game.
 
Very hight iq post. I'd give you reddit gold if i could kind stranger :soy:
The only winning move? Not playing the rigged game.
Lmao mgtow cope
 
Depends how you view Life or what is actually the goal. The greatest self-determination is in my opinion self improvement, and then being glad with what you have achieved or got.

Also winning against instincts wouldn't be suicide, it would be ascetism and complete control over the body. Also life isn't just about "living" the longest, it's what you make out of it. It's about shaping ones life to be a enjoyable as possible and with the least amount of suffering. Suicide is just the end of every possible suffering and happiness, and maybe it's not even the end since no one knows what happens to a person after death, maybe the suffering just continues.

Goals can be very different, enjoying new inventions, reading stories, spend time with people you enjoy and so on. The world doesn't care about us humans, but we can shape it to be as enjoyable as possible, and shaping the world could be another point for life.
I'm not telling people to not create goals for themselves while alive, in fact I mostly agree with you, especially considering that most people can't kill themselves easily, if at all. The thing is though, most pleasure is actually just negative value reduction which we perceive as pleasurable, when it's often only good insofar as it relives some sort of discomfort. The male sex drive is a good example. My point is that suicide is a viable option to escape this endless imposition of needs, and it's a great victory over biology.

You might have a point about ascetism being an even greater victory of this sort, but it serves no purpose which isn't better fulfilled through the act of killing yourself.
 
We were born and our lives were over.
 
It is the only agency we have. If I were competent enough I would be long gone already from this shitty life.
 
What is there to live for as an ugly male
 
Suicide is a brave choice especially if ya do it in public that’s more extreme.... It’s still sad :feelscry::feelscry::feelscry:
 
I'm not telling people to not create goals for themselves while alive, in fact I mostly agree with you, especially considering that most people can't kill themselves easily, if at all. The thing is though, most pleasure is actually just negative value reduction which we perceive as pleasurable, when it's often only good insofar as it relives some sort of discomfort. The male sex drive is a good example. My point is that suicide is a viable option to escape this endless imposition of needs, and it's a great victory over biology.

You might have a point about ascetism being an even greater victory of this sort, but it serves no purpose which isn't better fulfilled through the act of killing yourself.
I understand what you mean and it has some nice ring to it. But pleasure is not just negation of suffering, it's difficult to call it out but there are sometimes while listening music or reading a good book where everything is just blissful and joyful.

And it's true about your thought that the only way to get rid of all needs is suicide. Still I remain in my conviction that being control over the needs and shaping the surrounding is actually the greatest victory.
 
But pleasure is not just negation of suffering, it's difficult to call it out but there are sometimes while listening music or reading a good book where everything is just blissful and joyful.
It's not entirely no, for example I would say that the appreciation of art is independent positive value. So I agree with you there tbh. It's just hard to really do much of that when most of your time is consumed by need fulfillment and suffering reduction. However if people think such things are worth it for themselves, more power to them.
 
Related to the topic, you guys should read The Last Messiah. Zapffe explains the coping methods which people use really well imo.

 
It's not entirely no, for example I would say that the appreciation of art is independent positive value.
I agree with you here, although i think we should take into consideration that the existence of art is more often than not the result of suffering. I'd argue that without suffering, a lot of art forms wouldn't even exist. So we might be able to appreciate and expirience art as a net positive. But it's mere existence required the suffering of someone else. At least in most cases.
 
I agree with you here, although i think we should take into consideration that the existence of art is more often than not the result of suffering. I'd argue that without suffering, a lot of art forms wouldn't even exist. So we might be able to appreciate and expirience art as a net positive. But it's mere existence required the suffering of someone else. At least in most cases.

Perhaps that's the reason a lot of art and literature is forged from the suffering of men and not women. Women do not suffer as much as men and are so not driven to take to outlets to express this frustration and indignation with life.

But I'm not going to take the tradcuck route and say that in a way it's good men should suffer so that art forms should exist. In fact a lot of western civilization and western gynocentric culture and art is built off the suffering and struggle of non chad males.
 
Suicide is beautiful, especially when one is young.
 
I love your post OP but unfortunately there are counter arguments to be made against it.

For example some people's minds via mental illness or genetics or what have you may be intrinsically suicidal by nature and therefore it could be said of them that the way for them to "beat" their own version of life's apparent "game" is by resisting the suicidal urge and living for as long as they can ie meaning until death by natural causes, accident or murder takes them etc, etc.
 
In essence, philosophies such as stoicism and asceticism amount to enduring a low quality existence, therefore, I ask, what's the purpose of living onwards when you can't indulge in your biological urges and fulfill those needs? Why is an existence devoid of basic biological pleasures worth it? In the end, even stoicism and asceticism is still driven by the instinct to perpetuate life against all odds, even when that life isn't worth much.

The problem here is that the amount of suffering is greater than the amount of happiness.
Very interesting read and thought of you. What do you mean with "perpetuate life", do you mean to get known and famous?

And life without biological pleasure can still be worth it, since there are other forms of pleasure and biological pleasure is almost like an addiction. The problem of many guys is, that they are very driven on lust (Which is completely understandable, since it has such strong hormones and with that pressure associated). Best is also to regulate these biological pleasures.

Also happiness ans suffering can be interacted with, with things someone likes or acting on life to avoid stuff which creates suffering, or dealing to life with these sufferings till they don't bother anymore. There is a quote from Stoics which I like: "a sage would be emotionally resilient to misfortune."
 
Just keep losing your money at poker as you get bad hand after bad hand.
 
I agree with you here, although i think we should take into consideration that the existence of art is more often than not the result of suffering. I'd argue that without suffering, a lot of art forms wouldn't even exist. So we might be able to appreciate and expirience art as a net positive. But it's mere existence required the suffering of someone else. At least in most cases.
I'm not justifying it, personally I don't think the suffering is worth it at all. It would be better if none of us ever existed, but yet here we are.
 
Suicide is based
 
tbh I find the idea of being in a position where your life is immensely miserable & you physically cannot kill yourself (e.g paralyzed, on suicide watch, stuck in a psychiatric ward, etc) very disturbing
This is why men end up commiting suicide with higher success, while women attempt suicide way more but commit with very little success, to their eyes it is basically a call for help/attention, but for us it's just the end.
 
This is why men end up commiting suicide with higher success, while women attempt suicide way more but commit with very little success, to their eyes it is basically a call for help/attention, but for us it's just the end.
@mental_out posted a study about how women who have chronic pain from arthritis have a far higher ratio of suicides/attempts than the average woman. it's almost as if there's less "failed attempts" when the person actually wants to die
 
@mental_out posted a study about how women who have chronic pain from arthritis have a far higher ratio of suicides/attempts than the average woman. it's almost as if there's less "failed attempts" when the person actually wants to die
Yeah, women usually don't go for methods which are highly likely to actually kill them. We can only assume that in the case of the women who actually do use lethal methods, that they actually want to die.
 
What you're saying makes no sense

As in incel involuntarily CELIBATE (as in lacking sex)

RAPE IS THE GREATEST ACT OF SELF DETERMINATION AVAILABLE TO US

Rape is a man defying society's norms and values and "reclaiming his masculinity"

Killing yourself is just giving up, the end, its nothing more and nothing less

IT ACTUALLY SHOWS ZERO DETERMINATION
 
What you're saying makes no sense

As in incel involuntarily CELIBATE (as in lacking sex)

RAPE IS THE GREATEST ACT OF SELF DETERMINATION AVAILABLE TO US

Rape is a man defying society's norms and values and "reclaiming his masculinity"

Killing yourself is just giving up, the end, its nothing more and nothing less

IT ACTUALLY SHOWS ZERO DETERMINATION
Rape is still an act done in an effort to relieve your urges rather than stop them entirely. Its giving in to your pain completely, and subjecting someone else to suffering as a result.

JFL if you think killing yourself is easier to do than rape someone.
 
It wasn't that they had higher amounts of attempt, it was that they used more violent methods to achieve suicide. This is in contrast to the usual perception that womens failure rates is because they're inherently less violent, however it showed that when put into a situation such as chronic pain they start using the same violent methods men do, suggesting their choice for nonviolent methods usually is because most women who attempt don't actually want to die.
I assume the fact that they use more violent methods would imply they had a higher ratio of suicides to attempts (i.e they are more successful, not that they have a higher amount of attempts). that's what I was getting at
 
Rape is still an act done in an effort to relieve your urges rather than stop them entirely

Determination has nothing to do with "resisting urges" it has to do with "achieving a goal", you are creating super specific personal definitions to fit your narrative

JFL if you think killing yourself is easier to do than rape someone.

I want you to say this sentence over a few times and see how ridiculous it sounds lol

If you ACTUALLY WANT TO DIE you will kill yourself (there is an endless list of painless methods)

If you WANT TO RAPE SOMEONE they will struggle and fight against it and you risk jail time if caught (with suicide there is no aftermath)

One is obviously harder than the other
 
What you're saying makes no sense

As in incel involuntarily CELIBATE (as in lacking sex)

RAPE IS THE GREATEST ACT OF SELF DETERMINATION AVAILABLE TO US

Rape is a man defying society's norms and values and "reclaiming his masculinity"

Killing yourself is just giving up, the end, its nothing more and nothing less

IT ACTUALLY SHOWS ZERO DETERMINATION
Nathan Larson seal of approval
 
I believe that instead of glorifying our slavery, we as humans should congratulate those who managed to liberate themselves from their painful flesh shackles.


Yes. Your thinking is sensible.

To live is to serve, to kys is to flee.
 
Determination has nothing to do with "resisting urges" it has to do with "achieving a goal", you are creating super specific personal definitions to fit your narrative
Suicide is the fulfillment of every present and future goal all at once, because it's a method of reaching life's end state. Would you rather carry out a task countless times, or fulfill a condition which means that you're now exempt from having to do so? Not to mention that suicide can obviously be a goal of it's own.
I want you to say this sentence over a few times and see how ridiculous it sounds lol

If you ACTUALLY WANT TO DIE you will kill yourself (there is an endless list of painless methods)

If you WANT TO RAPE SOMEONE they will struggle and fight against it and you risk jail time if caught (with suicide there is no aftermath)

One is obviously harder than the other
First of all you're not taking into account the difficulty of even getting to the point where you're genuinely capable of killing yourself. Secondly regardless of how painless a method is, you might find it extremely difficult to actually carry out even if you want to die. It's true that rape would likely result in a far worse outcome for a person, but the fact that there is a perceivable future makes it a bit easier.

There are two things to consider here. One is the fact that it's usually very difficult for people to perceive everything that they've ever known ending as preferable to anything. Secondly there is the optimism bias observable in most people. For instance someone might think, "I won't get caught if I rape", or "the chances of me being caught are small" thereby making it more likely for them to actually follow through with it because they aren't taking the consequences into serious consideration. Whereas with killing yourself, unless it's an "attempt" only done for attention, there is little uncertainty that it's going to fucking kill you. The only doubt present is that you might fail, irreparably damage yourself, and make it impossible to try again.
 
Suicide is the fulfillment of every present and future goal all at once, because it's a method of reaching life's end state

No, what you are saying is not logical, its emotional nonsense with your own personal philosophical spin of reality

What you are saying is like arguing that writing a zero is the solution to all math problems, that's not how it works, the end/non-existence of something does not equal a completion of all other things related to it, it only means that thing ended (that's it)

I'm starting to see a trend of you rationalizing your entire world view based on personal definitions rather than objective reality and logical thinking

Would you rather carry out a task countless times, or fulfill a condition which means that you're now exempt from having to do so?

Context matters, this task is pleasurable where as fulfilling the condition means the end of my consciousness (which is enjoyable)

You speak as if you are comparing having a job to having passive income, now in that context I'd choose the condition, because its actually beneficial to me and enjoyable as opposed to working

Not to mention that suicide can obviously be a goal of it's own

I agree and I never claimed otherwise, you are the one trying to limit determination to being about "resisting urges", which has nothing to do with the definition at all

First of all you're not taking into account the difficulty of even getting to the point where you're genuinely capable of killing yourself

1. You are moving the goal posts, the topic is the difficulty of EXECUTING THE ACT not the difficulty of GETTING TO THE MENTAL STATE TO EXECUTE

2. If I agree with you, by your logic you aren't taking into account the difficulty of getting to the point where you're genuinely thinking about raping a woman, you also aren't taking into account all the planning that has to go into it. You have to consider location, avoiding cameras, having an alibi, not leaving DNA, etc, a person that wants to kill themselves doesn't have to consider any factors like this at all, you just die and that's it, no jail time to worry about

Secondly regardless of how painless a method is, you might find it extremely difficult to actually carry out even if you want to die

Just as carrying out a rape would be a moral dilemma to the average man and he would find it difficult to do, but again, that has nothing to do with the ease of performing the act itself, it has to do with ones mental limitations, and not everyone has those limitations

THE DIFFICULTY OF EXECUTING THE ACT IS A CONSTANT (Objective Criteria - Its easy for anyone to simply breath in nitrous oxide)

THE DIFFICULTY OF BEING IN THE MENTAL STATE TO EXECUTE THE ACT IS A VARIABLE (Subjective Criteria - some people have greater "mental fortitude" than others)

the fact that there is a perceivable future makes it a bit easier

Anybody who is thinking like this ironically doesn't actually want to kill themselves and they just have a martyr complex, people who want to die and hate their lives don't care about tomorrow, they just want their suffering to end

You can't have it both ways, it can't be - "I hate my life so much I want to die but at least as a rapist I'd have a future to look forward to"

:feelskek::feelskek::feelskek::feelskek::feelskek::feelskek:

I think its more like people need to stop MISUSING the term "suicidal", because everyone on the planet hates life at some point and thinks about the "ease" they would feel from their personal predicaments if they were dead, EVERYONE HAS THESE THOUGHTS

Just having these thoughts alone don't make you suicidal though, and based on how you speak about suicide, I'd argue you are speaking about such individuals, people who have DEVALUED THE TERM AND RENDERED IT MEANINGLESS

You can't say you want to die but "what about my future", that's bullshit, that just sounds like an attention whore to me

Now this is all I have left to say on the topic
 
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