[Venting] Victims of sex crimes aren't emotionally doomed and are able to eventually heal

Edmund_Kemper

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According to Mic, "A recently released study suggests that the majority of survivors of childhood sexual abuse are able to achieve what the study calls “complete mental health.” Complete mental Health (CMH) is defined, in the study, as, “the absence of mental illness in combination with almost daily happiness.” In the findings, 65% of childhood sexual abuse survivors who participated were reported to have CMH, compared to 77% of the general population." According to the article, having support from a confidant (a trusted friend you can talk about personal issues to) helps make victims more resilient.

The study admittedly controls for people with a history of depression or people who had multiple traumas. It's very common for the sexually abused to suffer multiple kinds of abuse. Children who suffer multiple abuse have more negative outcomes. HOWEVER, that was all controlled for because that would suggest that many child sexual abuse victims struggle with healing NOT because of the sexual abuse alone, but because of other kinds of abuse they might have suffered, too. Also, problems like chronic pain, depression, mental illness, substance abuse/dependence, etc. can decrease the odds of recovering from sexual abuse.

"If the survivors had been depressed at any point in their life, the odds of them currently being in complete mental health declined dramatically. This underlines the importance of mental-health interventions for this population. A promising intervention, cognitive behavioral therapy [CBT], has been tested and found effective at reducing post-traumatic stress disorder and depressive and anxiety symptoms among childhood sexual-abuse survivors," said co-author Dr. Ashley Lacombe-Duncan, a recent doctoral graduate from the FIFSW and Assistant Professor of Social Work at the University of Michigan. "Having a confidante was found to be the second-strongest single predictor of complete mental health, increasing the odds of past-year complete mental health nearly sevenfold. Given the importance of family and social-support systems, brief interventions to address trauma post-experience and bolster social and familial support are also called for," suggested Dr. Deborah Goodman, Director, Child Welfare Institute, Children's Aid Society of Toronto. Sexual-abuse survivors who had chronic pain had half the odds of complete mental health compared to those who were free of chronic pain. "It is important that health and social-service professionals help sexual-abuse survivors get the treatment they need to address both their physical health problems, such as chronic pain conditions, in addition to their mental-health concerns," said Dr. Barbara Fallon, Professor at the FIFSW and Canada Research Chair in Child Welfare.

Many bluepillers like to say that rape, child molestation, statutory rape, etc. ruins lives. Here's the thing: when a childhood sexual abuse survivor suffers multiple kinds of abuse such as physical abuse, witnessing domestic violence, etc. or has a history of mental illness or chronic pain, they are less likely to heal, which means that their problems with healing isn't from the sexual abuse alone, but from multiple problems they've suffered. Also, research has shown that when child sexual abuse survivors have depression, they are less likely to heal. Research also confirms that having a confidant and someone who you can trust and talk to and having emotional support from others helps the odds of recovery skyrocket and they are less likely to experience depression, disorders, etc. if they have someone to talk to and emotional support from others. This means that sexual abuse itself doesn't inherently ruin lives. A professor named Paul Tappan wrote that the idea that victims of sex attacks are ruined for life is a myth, and that society's intense reaction to sex offenses actually increases sexual trauma for victims. He wrote that society's reaction to sex offenses and society teaching victims that they cannot heal makes it significantly harder for victims to heal or persevere, and that without this reaction/moral panic from society, victims could heal pretty easily. The Kinsey researchers agreed with him, stating that society's reaction to such crimes does, in fact, more damage than the sex crime itself. Tappan says that in many preliterate societies, some sex offenses are characteristic and expected. He believes society's reaction to the offense does more damage than the offense itself.

The belief that rape is the worst thing to happen to a woman or that it ruins lives wasn't always a mainstream belief among feminists. For example, 1st wave feminists (feminists in the 19th and early 20th centuries) believed that women were resilient NOT vulnerable during sexual violence. Even feminists in the 1960s believed rape is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a woman. A research paper I read but cannot find has confirmed that war trauma is just as severe as if not more severe than rape trauma. The belief among feminists that rape permanently ruins lives didn't become popular among feminists until the early 1970s with the anti-rape movement becoming big back then. Some rape victims, such as Charlotte Shane and Fay Weldon, argued that rape isn't the worst thing to happen to a woman and that we shouldn't let a rapist's actions control the rest of our life. Shane wrote: "Though some feminists regard “rape equals devastation” as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available."

Teenage girls get traumatized by consensual sex with an older guy, but that's clearly because of society's reaction to the age difference, not because of the intrinsic nature of the age difference itself. In eras like Ancient Greece, Ancient Israel, pre-Industrial Revolution era-1800s era China/India/Eastern Europe, early 1900s India, etc., it was common with teen girls under 18 to marry an older guy, but there are NO records of them being traumatized by it back then because it was accepted by society. It's very possible that white women who dated black men in the 1950s claimed to be traumatized by the relationship because of the universal stigma back then. In some primitive societies, a mother fondling her own child sexually isn't considered incest or abusive and is instead considered normal, and the children aren't traumatized by it in those societies, but in societies where that's considered abuse, they are traumatized. This isn't trying to defend or condone these actions, but they aren't intrinsically traumatic. Many of these sex offenses are still bad. For example, a dog won't be traumatized from licking a man's penis and a corpse won't be traumatized by necrophilia, but both are still wrong (I changed my mind about necrophilia actually, that thread was before I changed my mind). The idea that teens are inherently immature and have an inherently immature brain is actually a myth. A man named Robert Epstein (no he isn't related to Jeffrey Epstein) says that teen turmoil isn't caused by the teen brain but that teen turmoil causes the teen brain, and immaturity and turmoil among teenagers is caused by society's infantilization of teenagers. This is definitely true because teen turmoil is NOT found in all societies worldwide. Laws taking away adult responsibilities from teenagers didn't exist until the 19th and 20th centuries. Older teens are finished with puberty and therefore are biologically adults, and this is why infantilizing them makes them act immature and develop psychopathology, because their brains tell them it's time to have adult responsibilities.

The sex offender/pedophile hysteria didn't begin until the end of the 19th century. Before that, it wasn't a topic that society focused a lot on. Phillip Jenkins writes about this in his book Moral Panic: Changing Concepts of the Child Molester in Modern America. The pedo hysteria began back then because of things like WT Stead's The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon article and movements to raise the age of consent that happened as a result of his article. Also, to all bluepillers who say "but i never healed", look up anecdotal fallacy, and don't say "you haven't experience it so you cannot say anything" because many people experience it differently from others and many people who experience it might look at the glass as half-empty.

Citations

Davis, L. The Courage to Heal: A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse (20th Anniversary edition). William Morrow, NY, 2008.

Haines, S. Healing Sex: A Mind-Body Approach to Healing Sexual Trauma. Cleis Press, San Francisco, 2007.

E. Fuller-Thomson, A. Lacombe-Duncan, D. Goodman, B. Fallon, & S. Brennenstuhl. From surviving to thriving: factors associated with complete mental health among childhood sexual abuse survivors in Social Psychiatry and Psychiatric Epidemiology. DOI 10.1007/s00127-019-01767- http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00127-019-01767-x

Duncan, Tracey Ann (November 19, 2019). "Sexual abuse survivors are not emotionally doomed, per new research". Mic.

Tappan, Paul W. (June 1955). "Some Myths About the Sex Offender". Federal Probation. Administrative Office of the United States Courts: 8.

Castleman, Michael (September 15, 2016). "Childhood Sexual Abuse: Sexual Recovery Is Possible". Psychology Today.

"Majority of childhood sex-abuse survivors achieve complete mental health". EurekAlert. November 19, 2019.

Lindsay, Robert. "Is Sexual Attraction to Female Minors "Normal" Among Males?". Academia.edu.
 
Robtical

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They don't even have anything to "heal" from if it wasn't violent and forced rape.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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They don't even have anything to "heal" from if it wasn't violent and forced rape.
if society told us to be traumatized by the color green, we'd prolly all be traumatized by green

@Mainländer @Napoleon de Geso @RREEEEEEEEE @FUCKITALLREEE @Sparrow's Song @mental_out @HostileWaters @ordinaryotaku @ionlycopenow @ihaveno1 @FidelCashflow @Legendarywristcel @Diocel @FinnCel @OldIncel @Dionysus
 
Dionysus

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if society told us to be traumatized by the color green, we'd prolly all be traumatized by green

@Mainländer @Napoleon de Geso @RREEEEEEEEE @FUCKITALLREEE @Sparrow's Song @mental_out @HostileWaters @ordinaryotaku @ionlycopenow @ihaveno1 @FidelCashflow @Legendarywristcel @Diocel @FinnCel @OldIncel @Dionysus
agreed. greencels are the new greycels
 
Edmund_Kemper

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agreed. greencels are the new greycels
the lifefuel and gaming tags are green.

i think inceldom is worser than sexual asasault
 
Edmund_Kemper

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Diocel

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most rape in america ijust drunk sex only
when you go half naked to a place alone and get drunk, don't tell people you're not completely innocent, if i go a neighborhood were i shouldn't be in and i get stabbed, i have a part of the responsibility
 
Robtical

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if society told us to be traumatized by the color green, we'd prolly all be traumatized by green
That's true, just like they used to scare people about ethnics. People even used to be afraid of black cats and thought they were possessed by the devil.
when you go half naked to a place alone and get drunk, don't tell people you're not completely innocent, if i go a neighborhood were i shouldn't be in and i get stabbed, i have a part of the responsibility
When american foids say they were "too drunk" to consent, they don't mean passed out drunk. they only mean after having a few beers and still being able to walk and speak clearly.
 
gymletethnicel

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Based post. Needs to be put in the Must Read Section.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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That's true, just like they used to scare people about ethnics. People even used to be afraid of black cats and thought they were possessed by the devil.

When american foids say they were "too drunk" to consent, they don't mean passed out drunk. they only mean after having a few beers and still being able to walk and speak clearly.
if a drunk rapist knows what he's doing, so does a drunk foid

also @cocksucker @WithoutMe @SergeantIncel @mental_out @GoffSystemQB @i_a_m_i put this in must read or even pin it. maybe it should be even in incels.wiki
 
ItsOver4cel

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This should have been in inceldom discussion tbh
 
Robtical

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if a drunk rapist knows what he's doing, so does a drunk foid
Or if a drunk guy gets his dick sucked by an ugly sober foid no one would call her a rapist.
also @cocksucker @WithoutMe @SergeantIncel @mental_out @GoffSystemQB @i_a_m_i put this in must read or even pin it. maybe it should be even in incels.wiki
This should be on the news. Foids need to stop bitching about this male villainizing nonsense.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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Or if a drunk guy gets his dick sucked by an ugly sober foid no one would call her a rapist.

This should be on the news. Foids need to stop bitching about this male villainizing nonsense.
why won't mods pin it? @cocksucker @mental_out
 
FUCKITALLREEE

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Gonna real later ngl.
 
failmaxxed

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They don't even have anything to "heal" from if it wasn't violent and forced rape.
exactly, roasties just want people to pity them and then applaud their "healing process" lol
 
Robtical

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exactly, roasties just want people to pity them and then applaud their "healing process" lol
They feel the need to get validation from anything they can, that's how desperate and pathetic they are.
 
Sparrow's Song

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if society told us to be traumatized by the color green, we'd prolly all be traumatized by green

@Mainländer @Napoleon de Geso @RREEEEEEEEE @FUCKITALLREEE @Sparrow's Song @mental_out @HostileWaters @ordinaryotaku @ionlycopenow @ihaveno1 @FidelCashflow @Legendarywristcel @Diocel @FinnCel @OldIncel @Dionysus
Femoids who get "raped" have more insurance/medicaid money spent on them than sickly and injured men.
 
Atavistic Autist

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It entirely depends upon their mental constellation. Roasties high in neuroticism will usually become insane giga sluts as a result of childhood abuse.
 
ShySaxon

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Nobody outside of this forum will touch this because it’s scientific fact backed up by evidence and doesn’t fit an incel haters world view.
 
AlexanderTheGreat11

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Edmund_Kemper

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Nobody outside of this forum will touch this because it’s scientific fact backed up by evidence and doesn’t fit an incel haters world view.
bluepilled cucks would prolly do mental gymnastics to "debunk" this thread
They feel the need to get validation from anything they can, that's how desperate and pathetic they are.
male rape victims receive less sympathy from normies
 
Wizard32

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Some rape victims, such as Charlotte Shane and Fay Weldon, argued that rape isn't the worst thing to happen to a woman and that we shouldn't let a rapist's actions control the rest of our life. Shane wrote: "Though some feminists regard “rape equals devastation” as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available."
I mostly agree with Shane except I don't like calling it misogyny because I don't agree with the mis- prefix (hatred) describing having a belittling view of women, it should only describe hatred. We should have a separate term for when we describe infantilizing them, since that can be done without hatred, even love-based.

Teenage girls get traumatized by consensual sex with an older guy, but that's clearly because of society's reaction to the age difference, not because of the intrinsic nature of the age difference itself.
Since it is due to the reaction you should not ever say they're traumatized by the sex, just directly say they're traumatized by the drama and harassment of the rape industry.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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I mostly agree with Shane except I don't like calling it misogyny because I don't agree with the mis- prefix (hatred) describing having a belittling view of women, it should only describe hatred. We should have a separate term for when we describe infantilizing them, since that can be done without hatred, even love-based.


Since it is due to the reaction you should not ever say they're traumatized by the sex, just directly say they're traumatized by the drama and harassment of the rape industry.
seriously the teen brain is a myth. look it up actually. robert epstein talks about this (no he isn't related to jeffrey epstein)
@RREEEEEEEEE

if teen turmoil is caused by teen brain then why is teen turmoil only found in certain regions of the world?
 
Wizard32

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seriously the teen brain is a myth

if teen turmoil is caused by teen brain then why is teen turmoil only found in certain regions of the world?
I don't see it as a teen-brain thing more like the drama would traumatize anybody subjected to it (even 20s/30s/40s) but since it's only teens who get subjected to the statutory-rape-hysteria they end up being the victims.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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I don't see it as a teen-brain thing more like the drama would traumatize anybody subjected to it (even 20s/30s/40s) but since it's only teens who get subjected to the statutory-rape-hysteria they end up being the victims.
agreed
 
Wizard32

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I guess it would be good to have some oversight like "make sure this guy doesn't start beating you up in the middle of it" but we would still have assault laws which are pretty broad. There's no need for special sexual ones.

The irony is if you legalized it teen foids would have more access to support and advice.

Instead they avoid asking for 3rd party intervention to protect the chads who deflower them.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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I guess it would be good to have some oversight like "make sure this guy doesn't start beating you up in the middle of it" but we would still have assault laws which are pretty broad. There's no need for special sexual ones.

The irony is if you legalized it teen foids would have more access to support and advice.

Instead they avoid asking for 3rd party intervention to protect the chads who deflower them.
i think someday age gaps will be more accepted and people will look back and think we were retarded for thinking a 22 year old dating a 17 year old is harmful
 
Wizard32

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only if we have a collapse TBH

the zoomers should've fixed this by now but they haven't becaue no matter how pro-sex each new gen gets they DGAF about protecting their elders
 
Edmund_Kemper

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only if we have a collapse TBH

the zoomers should've fixed this by now but they haven't becaue no matter how pro-sex each new gen gets they DGAF about protecting their elders
the NOMAPs imo will end the sex offender hysteria
 
FrothySolutions

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No one said people can't recover from sexual abuse? What people are saying is, sexual abuse is traumatic. Some people recover from trauma. Some people recover from broken bones. But a broken bone is still trauma. A broken bone isn't "acceptable." And neither is sexual abuse.

And you can't say "Only people with exacerbating secondary issues are traumatized by sexual abuse." You can be otherwise mentally sound, but be fucked up by sexual abuse. Just because some people recover from that trauma doesn't mean everyone recovers from that trauma.

And I'm gonna disagree with Tappan here. People want survivors of abuse to get better. No one's saying "Hey you better not get raped because then it's over." That's stupid. Cautioning against unwise decisions is not an "intense reaction." If sexual abuse is bad, and it is, what does Tappan suggest is the right reaction? Shouldn't we be telling kids not to go putting themselves at risk?

And yeah, we did a lot of shit prior to the 20th century that we stopped doing. Because eventually we learned different. We started to know better. Just because they did it in Ancient Greece doesn't make it right. But us no longer doing it? That most likely means it was wrong.
EDIT: Tappan's book was written in 1955??? That's way more outdated than I thought. I thought that was a recent book. No, standards in the 50s were way off. Hell, standards in the 70s were way off.
 
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Edmund_Kemper

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No one said people can't recover from sexual abuse? What people are saying is, sexual abuse is traumatic. Some people recover from trauma. Some people recover from broken bones. But a broken bone is still trauma. A broken bone isn't "acceptable." And neither is sexual abuse.

And you can't say "Only people with exacerbating secondary issues are traumatized by sexual abuse." You can be otherwise mentally sound, but be fucked up by sexual abuse. Just because some people recover from that trauma doesn't mean everyone recovers from that trauma.

And I'm gonna disagree with Tappan here. People want survivors of abuse to get better. No one's saying "Hey you better not get raped because then it's over." That's stupid. Cautioning against unwise decisions is not an "intense reaction." If sexual abuse is bad, and it is, what does Tappan suggest is the right reaction? Shouldn't we be telling kids not to go putting themselves at risk?

And yeah, we did a lot of shit prior to the 20th century that we stopped doing. Because eventually we learned different. We started to know better. Just because they did it in Ancient Greece doesn't make it right. But us no longer doing it? That most likely means it was wrong.
Tappan is right. In primitive societies, sexual fondling is common among mothers to their children, so how does having some guy touch your penis merely and then walk away traumatize you naturally? it's clearly society's reaction to the crime that traumatizes them, otherwise in those primitive societies they'd still be traumatized (which they aren't). also, the only reason why it's seen as bad for teens to get married is because society infantilizes teens. teens grew up faster back then because they were allowed to have adult responsibility. the teen brain is a myth. teen turmoil is NOT caused by teen brains. It's teen turmoil that causes the immature brain. And teen turmoil isn't inherent in teenagers, they only take risks and act immature because society infantilizes them and extends their childhood to 18 (or even 21). if teen turmoil was biological, then we'd see it in every region of the world, but we don't. older teens are finished with puberty, they're biologically adults and therefore infantilizing them, according to research, causes psychopathology and immaturity in them. the same thing would happen if we infantilized 30 year olds and had them in school and extended childhood to age 40. Robert Epstein talks constantly about this. in ancient greece, a 14 year old then was way more mature than today's 14 year olds. we stopped doing this because we now have laws restrict adult responsibilities among teenagers, and such laws didn't exist until the 19th/20th centuries. In ancient africa, there was a queen who was 16. I know of a 12 year old from history who commanded his own ship, and 14 year olds used to go to war.

Also, people don't really want survivors of abuse to heal. If that was true, why do they teach survivors that they're "traumatized forever" and that their life is ruined. if they really wanted them to heal, they'd teach resilience and teach them that they can heal. because they can. sex offenses such as coercive rape are inherently traumatic but things like fondling and statutory rape aren't because if they were, then people in all societies would be traumatized by fondling or statutory rape, which they aren't. There are NO records of teen girls being traumatized historically from marrying an older guy. Also, the reason why some people can't heal from sexual trauma is because they might have suffered other kinds of abuse, they don't have a confidant, they are taught this myth that they never heal and that their life is ruined, etc. Otherwise, they'd heal more easily.

i honestly don't get how somebody walking up to you and merely touching your penis and walking away is supposed to traumatize you. never said it's ok to do, but it isn't supposed to be traumatic. for example, cannibalism is wrong but it isn't traumatic because the eaten person is clearly dead
NOMAPs aren't legalizing adult-child sex. stop believing the far-right. they're about men who have attraction to prepubescent children but don't wanna act on it. nobody chooses to be attracted to a little kid
 
FrothySolutions

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Tappan is right. In primitive societies, sexual fondling is common among mothers to their children, so how does having some guy touch your penis merely and then walk away traumatize you naturally? it's clearly society's reaction to the crime that traumatizes them, otherwise in those primitive societies they'd still be traumatized (which they aren't). also, the only reason why it's seen as bad for teens to get married is because society infantilizes teens. teens grew up faster back then because they were allowed to have adult responsibility. the teen brain is a myth. teen turmoil is NOT caused by teen brains. It's teen turmoil that causes the immature brain. And teen turmoil isn't inherent in teenagers, they only take risks and act immature because society infantilizes them and extends their childhood to 18 (or even 21). if teen turmoil was biological, then we'd see it in every region of the world, but we don't. older teens are finished with puberty, they're biologically adults and therefore infantilizing them, according to research, causes psychopathology and immaturity in them. the same thing would happen if we infantilized 30 year olds and had them in school and extended childhood to age 40. Robert Epstein talks constantly about this. in ancient greece, a 14 year old then was way more mature than today's 14 year olds. we stopped doing this because we now have laws restrict adult responsibilities among teenagers, and such laws didn't exist until the 19th/20th centuries. In ancient africa, there was a queen who was 16. I know of a 12 year old from history who commanded his own ship, and 14 year olds used to go to war.

Also, people don't really want survivors of abuse to heal. If that was true, why do they teach survivors that they're "traumatized forever" and that their life is ruined. if they really wanted them to heal, they'd teach resilience and teach them that they can heal. because they can. sex offenses such as coercive rape are inherently traumatic but things like fondling and statutory rape aren't because if they were, then people in all societies would be traumatized by fondling or statutory rape, which they aren't. There are NO records of teen girls being traumatized historically from marrying an older guy. Also, the reason why some people can't heal from sexual trauma is because they might have suffered other kinds of abuse, they don't have a confidant, they are taught this myth that they never heal and that their life is ruined, etc. Otherwise, they'd heal more easily.

i honestly don't get how somebody walking up to you and merely touching your penis and walking away is supposed to traumatize you. never said it's ok to do, but it isn't supposed to be traumatic. for example, cannibalism is wrong but it isn't traumatic because the eaten person is clearly dead
We do not "infantilize" 14 year olds, they are inherently less sophisticated in physical and mental maturity than actual adults. We didn't just out of the blue stop sending boys to war/taking boys as butt slaves. Our laws come from observed need. We observed that hey, 14 year olds aren't actually the same as adults. We shouldn't be giving them adult freedoms and responsibilities. You CAN send a 14 year old to war, but now we realize that's wrong. We observed the failures of that, and decided to raise the age. Those are your "records." The things we've learned and observed to tell us that kids are kids, not adults. And adult things are only for adults. Not kids who aren't ready for them.

And primitive societies do lots of things, things that are primitive. A kid raised in a primitive society whether getting your dick fondled is fine will grow up to fit a society where getting your dick fondled is fine. But it turns out those dick fondling societies are primitive, not refined for a modern society that knows more about the deeper repercussions of dick fondling.

By the way, I'm 47, if somebody touches my dick that's gonna fuck me up. Because it's not like how you describe. It's not "Somebody walking up to you and merely touching your penis." If somebody walks up to me, and forces their way to touching my penis when I don't want them to, clearly to get some sexual pert off of it, if I don't fuck them up for that, the experience is gonna fuck me up. Because we as a sophisticated society understand the sanctity and necessity of one's right to sexual consent.

And wanting a victim to heal isn't about diminishing their struggle. If anything, that stifles the healing. Victims don't heal by you telling them sexual abuse is "no big deal" and you "honestly don't get" how what they've gone through is traumatic. They heal by understanding that they're stronger than their trauma.
 
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We do not "infantilize" 14 year olds, they are inherently less sophisticated in physical and mental maturity than actual adults. We didn't just out of the blue stop sending boys to war/taking boys as butt slaves. Our laws come from observed need. We observed that hey, 14 year olds aren't actually the same as adults. We shouldn't be giving them adult freedoms and responsibilities. You CAN send a 14 year old to war, but now we realize that's wrong. We observed the failures of that, and decided to raise the age. Those are your "records." The things we've learned and observed to tell us that kids are kids, not adults. And adult things are only for adults. Not kids who aren't ready for them.

And primitive societies do lots of things, things that are primitive. A kid raised in a primitive society whether getting your dick fondled is fine will grow up to fit a society where getting your dick fondled is fine. But it turns out those dick fondling societies are primitive, not refined for a modern society that knows more about the deeper repercussions of dick fondling.

By the way, I'm 47, if somebody touches my dick that's gonna fuck me up. Because it's not like how you describe. It's not "Somebody walking up to you and merely touching your penis." If somebody walks up to me, and forces their way to touching my penis when I don't want them to, clearly to get some sexual pert off of it, if I don't fuck them up for that, the experience is gonna fuck me up. Because we as a sophisticated society understand the sanctity and necessity of one's right to sexual consent.

And wanting a victim to heal isn't about diminishing their struggle. If anything, that stifles the healing. Victims don't heal by you telling them sexual abuse is "no big deal" and you "honestly don't get" how what they've gone through is traumatic. They heal by understanding that they're stronger than their trauma.
no just because society decided teenagers are too young doesn't mean they're too young, modern doesn't equal right. that's appeal to novelty. also, primitive=/=bad either. right or wrong is decided by society. many modern societies believe trans people with penises using the women's room is ok and that drag queens reading to 3 year olds is good but think it's wrong for an 18 year old to date a 24 year old. in primitive socities, it's the other way around. society makes big mistakes in how they change and try to improve society. just because society decided we're too young if we're below 21 doesn't mean it's true. also, i'm not saying fondling is ok, i'm saying that it's only traumatic because of society's reaction to the crime, not the nature of the crime itself. if a kid allows an adult to fondle them, they're only later traumatized because of society's reaction. i've seen someone claim to be traumatized by a simply kiss from when they were 13 which they allowed to happen, but in another society, they wouldn't be traumatized.

and if teenagers are too immature, why did they succeed in marriage, war, reigning, etc. in the old days. why are they much more mature in other societies? a 10 yr old in a refugee society will be more mature than a 21 year old in america. compulsory education only existed in america since the early 1900s and only existed because of concerns about immigration and stuff like that. the drinking age used to never exist in colonial america, even 12 year old boys were allowed to drink in taverns back then. it was raised higher because society was brainwashed by the religious temperance movement in the 1800s. we teach people that they aren't ready to be adults until 21 (or even 25) and so we make them go to college at 18-22 and not have kids until 30. trust me, if we lived in a society where teenagers weren't infantilized they'd be more mature. the infantilizxation of teens is a slippery slope, the temperance movement exists in the 1800s and wants to ban alcohol so they try to raise the drinking age, then they next decide to raise the marriage age then raise other legal ages, etc.

Look up The Case Against Adolescence by Robert Epstein

 
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no just because society decided teenagers are too young doesn't mean they're too young, modern doesn't equal right. that's appeal to novelty. also, primitive=/=bad either. right or wrong is decided by society. many modern societies believe trans people with penises using the women's room is ok and that drag queens reading to 3 year olds is good but think it's wrong for an 18 year old to date a 24 year old. in primitive socities, it's the other way around. society makes big mistakes in how they change and try to improve society. just because society decided we're too young if we're below 21 doesn't mean it's true. also, i'm not saying fondling is ok, i'm saying that it's only traumatic because of society's reaction to the crime, not the nature of the crime itself. if a kid allows an adult to fondle them, they're only later traumatized because of society's reaction. i've seen someone claim to be traumatized by a simply kiss from when they were 13 which they allowed to happen, but in another society, they wouldn't be traumatized.

and if teenagers are too immature, why did they succeed in marriage, war, reigning, etc. in the old days. why are they much more mature in other societies? a 10 yr old in a refugee society will be more mature than a 21 year old in america. compulsory education only existed in america since the early 1900s and only existed because of concerns about immigration and stuff like that. the drinking age used to never exist in colonial america, even 12 year old boys were allowed to drink in taverns back then. it was raised higher because society was brainwashed by the religious temperance movement in the 1800s. we teach people that they aren't ready to be adults until 21 (or even 25) and so we make them go to college at 18-22 and not have kids until 30. trust me, if we lived in a society where teenagers weren't infantilized they'd be more mature. the infantilizxation of teens is a slippery slope, the temperance movement exists in the 1800s and wants to ban alcohol so they try to raise the drinking age, then they next decide to raise the marriage age then raise other legal ages, etc.

Look up The Case Against Adolescence by Robert Epstein

Modern = right when we weigh what "right" and "wrong" are, and find that modernity brings us more wisdom with regard to what "right" and "wrong" are. We didn't stop sending boys to war because it was hip and new. We stopped sending boys to war because, in those comparatively modern times, we came to the realization that it was wrong. Came to that realization the same way we would come to the realization of anything else being wrong. Are we wrong about what's right and wrong? Are we wrong to say that it's wrong to send kids to war, wars they don't like and are unfit to fight in? Wars that much older people are much more competent at? Is it wrong to make the observation that a 14 year old and a 21 year old are not the same in mental and physical maturity?

And you have that backwards. Kids who allow their abusers to take advantage of them are "traumatized" not so much in a "I didn't want it" way, and more in a "I wish he didn't do that because now I'm mad that he didn't treat me better" way. And that's not healthy. See how Dahvie Vanity fucked up Jessi Slaughter. That's the kind of trauma we're trying to avoid. She entered into that willingly, but because she was a stupid horny kid, she wasn't mentally fit for the relationship. And that's why she's all like "I wish Vanity was nicer to me." That's not a healthy mindset.

And again, kids CAN go to war. Kids CAN reign. But that doesn't mean they should, or that they're good at it. All history shows us is that kids were put in adult situations. That doesn't mean those situations were ideal. Very little of history was ideal, because history is filled with people who know less than us. This is not infantilization. For fuck's sake, we have scientific proof that young minds are still too new to safely drink alcohol and smoke weed. That's not "infantilization," we don't let kids do these things because their bodies are physically and chemically incapable of handling them properly, and back before we did those things, we were stupid and didn't know.
 
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High iq tbh, meanwhile being an incel is a torture for life
 
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No one said people can't recover from sexual abuse? What people are saying is, sexual abuse is traumatic. Some people recover from trauma. Some people recover from broken bones. But a broken bone is still trauma. A broken bone isn't "acceptable." And neither is sexual abuse.

And you can't say "Only people with exacerbating secondary issues are traumatized by sexual abuse." You can be otherwise mentally sound, but be fucked up by sexual abuse. Just because some people recover from that trauma doesn't mean everyone recovers from that trauma.

And I'm gonna disagree with Tappan here. People want survivors of abuse to get better. No one's saying "Hey you better not get raped because then it's over." That's stupid. Cautioning against unwise decisions is not an "intense reaction." If sexual abuse is bad, and it is, what does Tappan suggest is the right reaction? Shouldn't we be telling kids not to go putting themselves at risk?

And yeah, we did a lot of shit prior to the 20th century that we stopped doing. Because eventually we learned different. We started to know better. Just because they did it in Ancient Greece doesn't make it right. But us no longer doing it? That most likely means it was wrong.
EDIT: Tappan's book was written in 1955??? That's way more outdated than I thought. I thought that was a recent book. No, standards in the 50s were way off. Hell, standards in the 70s were way off.
Strange how all the "sexual abuse trauma" goes out the window when cucks and whores joke about male prison rape. And that's the worst kind of rape, not when rosties cry about having a few beers than having sex with a sub8.
 
ChinaCurry

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Is not getting any a sex crime?
 
Edmund_Kemper

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Modern = right when we weigh what "right" and "wrong" are, and find that modernity brings us more wisdom with regard to what "right" and "wrong" are. We didn't stop sending boys to war because it was hip and new. We stopped sending boys to war because, in those comparatively modern times, we came to the realization that it was wrong. Came to that realization the same way we would come to the realization of anything else being wrong. Are we wrong about what's right and wrong? Are we wrong to say that it's wrong to send kids to war, wars they don't like and are unfit to fight in? Wars that much older people are much more competent at? Is it wrong to make the observation that a 14 year old and a 21 year old are not the same in mental and physical maturity?

And you have that backwards. Kids who allow their abusers to take advantage of them are "traumatized" not so much in a "I didn't want it" way, and more in a "I wish he didn't do that because now I'm mad that he didn't treat me better" way. And that's not healthy. See how Dahvie Vanity fucked up Jessi Slaughter. That's the kind of trauma we're trying to avoid. She entered into that willingly, but because she was a stupid horny kid, she wasn't mentally fit for the relationship. And that's why she's all like "I wish Vanity was nicer to me." That's not a healthy mindset.

And again, kids CAN go to war. Kids CAN reign. But that doesn't mean they should, or that they're good at it. All history shows us is that kids were put in adult situations. That doesn't mean those situations were ideal. Very little of history was ideal, because history is filled with people who know less than us. This is not infantilization. For fuck's sake, we have scientific proof that young minds are still too new to safely drink alcohol and smoke weed. That's not "infantilization," we don't let kids do these things because their bodies are physically and chemically incapable of handling them properly, and back before we did those things, we were stupid and didn't know.
that scientific proof is inaccurate because like i said the teen brain is NOT inherent. it's teen turmoil that causes the teen brain. the teen brain isn't intrinsic in us. robert epstein wrote about this. if the teen brain was the cause of immaturity then teen turmoil would be universal which it actually isn't universal. laws infantilizing teenagers weren't rational. modern=/=we learned because sometimes society makes mistakes.

compulsory education began because child labor laws began to exist. they raised the minimum labor age to 11 or something but then banned child labor completely because instead of giving some 11 year old a safe job they put them in dangerous places full of danger to work. so child labor laws were made because we put some 11 year old in the wrong job. I think a 17 year old can handle any job. child labor laws and concerns about immigration are why compulsory education exists. 16 year olds used to work but that all changed in the 1940s. the drinking age was only raised because society was brainwahsed by the religious temperance movement. it creates this slippery slope where people then decide to infantilize teens more and more.

there are NO records of teenagers being unable to handle marriage, being a king/queen, war, etc. back then.

also, you kinda just proved that they're traumatized because of society's reaction. kinda shows that if dahvie's relationship with her was accepted by society she wouldn't be traumatized, never said it's ok but that it isn't inherently traumatic.
Strange how all the "sexual abuse trauma" goes out the window when cucks and whores joke about male prison rape. And that's the worst kind of rape, not when rosties cry about having a few beers than having sex with a sub8.
most child sex abuse victims who can't heal it's only because they suffered multiple kinds of abuse or they don't have a confidant
 
happiless

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According to Mic, "A recently released study suggests that the majority of survivors of childhood sexual abuse are able to achieve what the study calls “complete mental health.” Complete mental Health (CMH) is defined, in the study, as, “the absence of mental illness in combination with almost daily happiness.” In the findings, 65% of childhood sexual abuse survivors who participated were reported to have CMH, compared to 77% of the general population." According to the article, having support from a confidant (a trusted friend you can talk about personal issues to) helps make victims more resilient.
source?
The study admittedly controls for people with a history of depression or people who had multiple traumas. It's very common for the sexually abused to suffer multiple kinds of abuse. Children who suffer multiple abuse have more negative outcomes. HOWEVER, that was all controlled for because that would suggest that many child sexual abuse victims struggle with healing NOT because of the sexual abuse alone, but because of other kinds of abuse they might have suffered, too. Also, problems like chronic pain, depression, mental illness, substance abuse/dependence, etc. can decrease the odds of recovering from sexual abuse.
source?
"If the survivors had been depressed at any point in their life, the odds of them currently being in complete mental health declined dramatically. This underlines the importance of mental-health interventions for this population. A promising intervention, cognitive behavioral therapy [CBT], has been tested and found effective at reducing post-traumatic stress disorder and depressive and anxiety symptoms among childhood sexual-abuse survivors," said co-author Dr. Ashley Lacombe-Duncan, a recent doctoral graduate from the FIFSW and Assistant Professor of Social Work at the University of Michigan. "Having a confidante was found to be the second-strongest single predictor of complete mental health, increasing the odds of past-year complete mental health nearly sevenfold. Given the importance of family and social-support systems, brief interventions to address trauma post-experience and bolster social and familial support are also called for," suggested Dr. Deborah Goodman, Director, Child Welfare Institute, Children's Aid Society of Toronto. Sexual-abuse survivors who had chronic pain had half the odds of complete mental health compared to those who were free of chronic pain. "It is important that health and social-service professionals help sexual-abuse survivors get the treatment they need to address both their physical health problems, such as chronic pain conditions, in addition to their mental-health concerns," said Dr. Barbara Fallon, Professor at the FIFSW and Canada Research Chair in Child Welfare.
source?
Many bluepillers like to say that rape, child molestation, statutory rape, etc. ruins lives. Here's the thing: when a childhood sexual abuse survivor suffers multiple kinds of abuse such as physical abuse, witnessing domestic violence, etc. or has a history of mental illness or chronic pain, they are less likely to heal, which means that their problems with healing isn't from the sexual abuse alone, but from multiple problems they've suffered. Also, research has shown that when child sexual abuse survivors have depression, they are less likely to heal. Research also confirms that having a confidant and someone who you can trust and talk to and having emotional support from others helps the odds of recovery skyrocket and they are less likely to experience depression, disorders, etc. if they have someone to talk to and emotional support from others. This means that sexual abuse itself doesn't inherently ruin lives. A professor named Paul Tappan wrote that the idea that victims of sex attacks are ruined for life is a myth, and that society's intense reaction to sex offenses actually increases sexual trauma for victims. He wrote that society's reaction to sex offenses and society teaching victims that they cannot heal makes it significantly harder for victims to heal or persevere, and that without this reaction/moral panic from society, victims could heal pretty easily. The Kinsey researchers agreed with him, stating that society's reaction to such crimes does, in fact, more damage than the sex crime itself. Tappan says that in many preliterate societies, some sex offenses are characteristic and expected. He believes society's reaction to the offense does more damage than the offense itself.
source?
The belief that rape is the worst thing to happen to a woman or that it ruins lives wasn't always a mainstream belief among feminists. For example, 1st wave feminists (feminists in the 19th and early 20th centuries) believed that women were resilient NOT vulnerable during sexual violence. Even feminists in the 1960s believed rape is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a woman. A research paper I read but cannot find has confirmed that war trauma is just as severe as if not more severe than rape trauma. The belief among feminists that rape permanently ruins lives didn't become popular among feminists until the early 1970s with the anti-rape movement becoming big back then. Some rape victims, such as Charlotte Shane and Fay Weldon, argued that rape isn't the worst thing to happen to a woman and that we shouldn't let a rapist's actions control the rest of our life. Shane wrote: "Though some feminists regard “rape equals devastation” as sacred fact, the notion that a man can ruin me with his penis strikes me as the most complete expression of vintage misogyny available."
source?
Teenage girls get traumatized by consensual sex with an older guy, but that's clearly because of society's reaction to the age difference, not because of the intrinsic nature of the age difference itself. In eras like Ancient Greece, Ancient Israel, pre-Industrial Revolution era-1800s era China/India/Eastern Europe, early 1900s India, etc., it was common with teen girls under 18 to marry an older guy, but there are NO records of them being traumatized by it back then because it was accepted by society. It's very possible that white women who dated black men in the 1950s claimed to be traumatized by the relationship because of the universal stigma back then. In some primitive societies, a mother fondling her own child sexually isn't considered incest or abusive and is instead considered normal, and the children aren't traumatized by it in those societies, but in societies where that's considered abuse, they are traumatized. This isn't trying to defend or condone these actions, but they aren't intrinsically traumatic. Many of these sex offenses are still bad. For example, a dog won't be traumatized from licking a man's penis and a corpse won't be traumatized by necrophilia, but both are still wrong (I changed my mind about necrophilia actually, that thread was before I changed my mind). The idea that teens are inherently immature and have an inherently immature brain is actually a myth. A man named Robert Epstein (no he isn't related to Jeffrey Epstein) says that teen turmoil isn't caused by the teen brain but that teen turmoil causes the teen brain, and immaturity and turmoil among teenagers is caused by society's infantilization of teenagers. This is definitely true because teen turmoil is NOT found in all societies worldwide. Laws taking away adult responsibilities from teenagers didn't exist until the 19th and 20th centuries. Older teens are finished with puberty and therefore are biologically adults, and this is why infantilizing them makes them act immature and develop psychopathology, because their brains tell them it's time to have adult responsibilities.
source?
The sex offender/pedophile hysteria didn't begin until the end of the 19th century. Before that, it wasn't a topic that society focused a lot on. Phillip Jenkins writes about this in his book Moral Panic: Changing Concepts of the Child Molester in Modern America. The pedo hysteria began back then because of things like WT Stead's The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon article and movements to raise the age of consent that happened as a result of his article. Also, to all bluepillers who say "but i never healed", look up anecdotal fallacy, and don't say "you haven't experience it so you cannot say anything" because many people experience it differently from others and many people who experience it might look at the glass as half-empty.
source?
source?

Although the author mentions his citations, he does not refer to them within his text. Consequently, one cannot understand the source of his claims.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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source?

Although the author mentions his citations, he does not refer to them within his text. Consequently, one cannot understand the source of his claims.
my citations have links
 
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Nevertheless, his claims can be considered based and blackpilled
people say teens have a developing brain but that's a myth. look it up. the myth of the teen brain
 
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that scientific proof is inaccurate because like i said the teen brain is NOT inherent. it's teen turmoil that causes the teen brain. the teen brain isn't intrinsic in us. robert epstein wrote about this. if the teen brain was the cause of immaturity then teen turmoil would be universal which it actually isn't universal. laws infantilizing teenagers weren't rational. modern=/=we learned because sometimes society makes mistakes.

compulsory education began because child labor laws began to exist. they raised the minimum labor age to 11 or something but then banned child labor completely because instead of giving some 11 year old a safe job they put them in dangerous places full of danger to work. so child labor laws were made because we put some 11 year old in the wrong job. I think a 17 year old can handle any job. child labor laws and concerns about immigration are why compulsory education exists. 16 year olds used to work but that all changed in the 1940s. the drinking age was only raised because society was brainwahsed by the religious temperance movement. it creates this slippery slope where people then decide to infantilize teens more and more.

there are NO records of teenagers being unable to handle marriage, being a king/queen, war, etc. back then.

also, you kinda just proved that they're traumatized because of society's reaction. kinda shows that if dahvie's relationship with her was accepted by society she wouldn't be traumatized, never said it's ok but that it isn't inherently traumatic.

most child sex abuse victims who can't heal it's only because they suffered multiple kinds of abuse or they don't have a confidant
It was inherent. Again, our laws are the product of observed need. We didn't create the "teen brain." We observed the teen brain, and then made laws in response to it. The teen brain has always been. The fact that we used to not take care of kids isn't proof that kids don't need to be taken care of. Just because kids went to war doesn't make them good soldiers. The record is the fact that we stopped doing it. We didn't just stop letting kids be kings for no reason.

And Slaughter's handling of the issue isn't affected by society's reaction. Society's reaction is "She should've never been with Dahvie." Her reaction is "I would've been okay with being with Dahvie if he were nicer to me." That emotional dependence? That is the teen brain. Her parents didn't intervene, just like you say should, allegedly, result in a teenager somehow holding down a healthy relationship with an adult. It didn't happen. She was needy and clung to him. And she still isn't rid of her obsession with him. Because that's what the teen brain does when you give it an adult situation.

And you can't speak for every sex abuse victim. Again, I have suffered... probably no kinds of abuse, save for being incel. If somebody abuses my dick, at the soggy age of 47, I will not heal from that. I'll remember it forever, remember how I didn't kill my abuser for doing that to me. That doesn't make me "sensitive" to sexual abuse. Because sexual abuse is not a small deal.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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It was inherent. Again, our laws are the product of observed need. We didn't create the "teen brain." We observed the teen brain, and then made laws in response to it. The teen brain has always been. The fact that we used to not take care of kids isn't proof that kids don't need to be taken care of. Just because kids went to war doesn't make them good soldiers. The record is the fact that we stopped doing it. We didn't just stop letting kids be kings for no reason.

And Slaughter's handling of the issue isn't affected by society's reaction. Society's reaction is "She should've never been with Dahvie." Her reaction is "I would've been okay with being with Dahvie if he were nicer to me." That emotional dependence? That is the teen brain. Her parents didn't intervene, just like you say should, allegedly, result in a teenager somehow holding down a healthy relationship with an adult. It didn't happen. She was needy and clung to him. And she still isn't rid of her obsession with him. Because that's what the teen brain does when you give it an adult situation.

And you can't speak for every sex abuse victim. Again, I have suffered... probably no kinds of abuse, save for being incel. If somebody abuses my dick, at the soggy age of 47, I will not heal from that. I'll remember it forever, remember how I didn't kill my abuser for doing that to me. That doesn't make me "sensitive" to sexual abuse. Because sexual abuse is not a small deal.
Sorry but there are no records of teens struggling with war or marriage back then. There’s no records of a queen in Africa who was 16 struggling back then. And like I said if the teen brain is inherent why is teen turmoil NOT universal? In other societies, teenagers are a lot more mature than in America. There’s no proof that it’s inherent. Immature behavior causes the teen brain NOT vice verse, otherwise we’d say inmaturity in teenagers universally instead of just in some societies. There’s no records of youngsters drinking irresponsibly in colonial America back when they had adult rights. If you can find proof that teen turmoil is universal, in every society, region and time period then maybe I can believe it.

I read even about a 12 year old who commanded his own ship all on his own and I. Read studies about teens having better skills than older adults. It’s how we raise them and extend their childhood to 21 that makes them immature. We treat them like children even though they’re post-pubescent and thus biologically adults and this creates problems in them. They do adult activities because their brain tells them it’s time for that now that they finished puberty.

also societydidnt say “jessi should avoid Dahvie” because they didn’t want them to. she said dahvie shouldn’t have molested her and society agreed. Society wouldn’t mind them being friends if he didn’t molest. Trust me, if jessi and dahvie’s age gap was accepted by society she wouldn’t be traumatized. Hell, she wouldn’t be traumatized if society didn’t teach us that this trauma is supposed to happen. No, getting your penis touched isn’t inherently traumatic. If society taught us that it’s as bad as insulting someone, then a person who got fondled would see it as a slightly uncomfortable moment and move on. They wouldn’t have nightmares from a mere finger merely touching a piece of flesh between the legs. Trust me, if a teen girl dating a 30 year old was accepted, she wouldn’t be damaged by it.

no society never observed any teen brain back when laws infantilizing them began in the 1800s. Society didn’t examine the teen brain until much much later on. I already explained how society began infantilizing teens because of the temperance movement, misuse of child labor, compulsory education due to xenophobic concerns about immigrants, etc.

read this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-myth-of-the-teen-brain-2007-06/
 
FrothySolutions

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Sorry but there are no records of teens struggling with war or marriage back then. There’s no records of a queen in Africa who was 16 struggling back then. And like I said if the teen brain is inherent why is teen turmoil NOT universal? In other societies, teenagers are a lot more mature than in America. There’s no proof that it’s inherent. Immature behavior causes the teen brain NOT vice verse, otherwise we’d say inmaturity in teenagers universally instead of just in some societies. There’s no records of youngsters drinking irresponsibly in colonial America back when they had adult rights. If you can find proof that teen turmoil is universal, in every society, region and time period then maybe I can believe it.

I read even about a 12 year old who commanded his own ship all on his own and I. Read studies about teens having better skills than older adults. It’s how we raise them and extend their childhood to 21 that makes them immature. We treat them like children even though they’re post-pubescent and thus biologically adults and this creates problems in them. They do adult activities because their brain tells them it’s time for that now that they finished puberty.

also societydidnt say “jessi should avoid Dahvie” because they didn’t want them to. she said dahvie shouldn’t have molested her and society agreed. Society wouldn’t mind them being friends if he didn’t molest. Trust me, if jessi and dahvie’s age gap was accepted by society she wouldn’t be traumatized. Hell, she wouldn’t be traumatized if society didn’t teach us that this trauma is supposed to happen. No, getting your penis touched isn’t inherently traumatic. If society taught us that it’s as bad as insulting someone, then a person who got fondled would see it as a slightly uncomfortable moment and move on. They wouldn’t have nightmares from a mere finger merely touching a piece of flesh between the legs. Trust me, if a teen girl dating a 30 year old was accepted, she wouldn’t be damaged by it.

no society never observed any teen brain back when laws infantilizing them began in the 1800s. Society didn’t examine the teen brain until much much later on. I already explained how society began infantilizing teens because of the temperance movement, misuse of child labor, compulsory education due to xenophobic concerns about immigrants, etc.

read this: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-myth-of-the-teen-brain-2007-06/
What societies are you talking about? In what modern society do we treat teenagers like adults?

And what are you asking for in the way of records? Some ancient ledger that said "The girl queen wasn't very good at her job?" That's not how it works. The way it works is, stupider societies let child rulers do a child's job at ruling, and then as time goes on and we become more educated, we realize we want our rulers to do better jobs. What was "good" to a primitive and uneducated society is no longer good enough. No, the old records aren't gonna say the child rulers did a bad job, because they had much lower standards for what a "bad job" is. The thing to observe is, adults are more mature and capable than teenagers are. That's why we don't treat them the same.

And kids don't have better skills than adults. They might have faster reflexes due to having younger brains, but they aren't mature enough for adult responsibilities.

And what Slaughter resented was that he wasn't better to her. Listen to the interviews she's in. She says he shouldn't have molested her because, as an adult, she realizes that she was being taken advantage of as a child. He "used" her to get what she wanted. And that's what she hates. That she was "used." And she was always going to get used, because she was a stupid kid. Her parents didn't make her into a stupid kid, in fact her parents gave her unprecedented freedom. Her parents were fine with Dahvie and Slaughter being together, until they knew it was sexual. And despite all that freedom that should've, according to you, turned her into something competent, she gave her body and mind to him. Depended on him for life. This is why we don't let kids do this.

And you're saying getting your dick touched would be fine in a world where we just didn't care about the sanctity of our dicks? That's no solution. "Let's just not care about sexual abuse. Let's just get over it. It's no big deal." By that measure we could be convinced to not care about a lot of things. Let's just not care about burglary or murder. Ethics have to change for a reason. Like when we stopped letting kids be rulers, we have to observe a new need. You can't just say "Nothing means anything, let's just change our ethics."

And yes, we did observe how immature children were compared to adults. Even back in the 1800s. You seem to be confusing it for "infantilization," but no. We treated kids like kids back then, because we observed that kids are very immature. I'm not quite sure how to explain this to you. We treated kids like kids, because we saw how kiddy they were. That's it.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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What societies are you talking about? In what modern society do we treat teenagers like adults?

And what are you asking for in the way of records? Some ancient ledger that said "The girl queen wasn't very good at her job?" That's not how it works. The way it works is, stupider societies let child rulers do a child's job at ruling, and then as time goes on and we become more educated, we realize we want our rulers to do better jobs. What was "good" to a primitive and uneducated society is no longer good enough. No, the old records aren't gonna say the child rulers did a bad job, because they had much lower standards for what a "bad job" is. The thing to observe is, adults are more mature and capable than teenagers are. That's why we don't treat them the same.

And kids don't have better skills than adults. They might have faster reflexes due to having younger brains, but they aren't mature enough for adult responsibilities.

And what Slaughter resented was that he wasn't better to her. Listen to the interviews she's in. She says he shouldn't have molested her because, as an adult, she realizes that she was being taken advantage of as a child. He "used" her to get what she wanted. And that's what she hates. That she was "used." And she was always going to get used, because she was a stupid kid. Her parents didn't make her into a stupid kid, in fact her parents gave her unprecedented freedom. Her parents were fine with Dahvie and Slaughter being together, until they knew it was sexual. And despite all that freedom that should've, according to you, turned her into something competent, she gave her body and mind to him. Depended on him for life. This is why we don't let kids do this.

And you're saying getting your dick touched would be fine in a world where we just didn't care about the sanctity of our dicks? That's no solution. "Let's just not care about sexual abuse. Let's just get over it. It's no big deal." By that measure we could be convinced to not care about a lot of things. Let's just not care about burglary or murder. Ethics have to change for a reason. Like when we stopped letting kids be rulers, we have to observe a new need. You can't just say "Nothing means anything, let's just change our ethics."

And yes, we did observe how immature children were compared to adults. Even back in the 1800s. You seem to be confusing it for "infantilization," but no. We treated kids like kids back then, because we observed that kids are very immature. I'm not quite sure how to explain this to you. We treated kids like kids, because we saw how kiddy they were. That's it.
false. laws taking away teenagers' adults rights didn't exist until the 1800s arrived and these laws became MUCH more common in the late 20th century. also, burglary and murder is inherently bad because murder ends your life and burglary often has you at risk of being assaulted or having your property/belongings stolen. that stuff IS inherently painful no matter what society you live in. having your penis simply touched is NOT inherently traumatic. how does somebody touching you there traumatize you naturally? where is the proof of that that a mere touch can ruin your life? this whole idea that sex crimes are the worst crimes only exists because since biblical times, we've viewed sex as the most intimate thing one can have because sex was seen as evil throughout history and something only done for making babies, and if you did anything sexual without for making babies, you were labeled "evil". that's the only reason even the most mild sex crime is seen as worse than murder. also, no she isn't traumatized because what he did is inherently traumatic. again, if she was molested by him in a society where we aren't taught what's traumatic and what's right/wrong, she wouldn't be traumatized. she'd look back, think he was weird, and move on. if fondling was naturally traumatic, it'd traumatize people in ALL societies which it doesn't. if sex with a teen naturally traumatized them, then we would've easily seen it in the old days which we didn't. this protest against underage marriage didn't start until people like elizabeth oakes smith started protesting it in the mid-1800s because she believed women should have education first before marriage and whatnot and she influenced by the environment where society began to infantilize teenagers. if teens were always traumatized by marrying an older guy, teen marriage wouldn't already ended back in ancient greece or even before that, which it didn't.

also, no we never observed how immature teenagers are. again, this temperance movement was made because of christian beliefs, and so they decided to raise the drinking age very high as a compromise. child labor laws were made because people didn't give a 10 year old the right job. a 17 year old man can easily handle any job. if he can handle war, he can handle factories too. 18 is just a randomly chosen number. also, studies in the article i sent you show that in other societies researchers observed, they saw NO immaturity among teenagers and noticed how immaturity among teens in these socieities only starterd when they began to be influenced by western culture.

Trust me, if we didn't treat teenagers like children, they'd be way more mature. i know for this for a fact. i mean, nowadays even 22 year olds act like kids while a long time ago they got married and had children and had their own house. it's nurture NOT nature. i wanna see real proof that the age difference causes the trauma and not society's reaction. there are people even 100 years ago who got married with an age gap like 15 and 25 and the 15 year old foid wasn't even traumatized because it was allowed back then while today she'd claim to be traumatized.
 
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false. laws taking away teenagers' adults rights didn't exist until the 1800s arrived and these laws became MUCH more common in the late 20th century. also, burglary and murder is inherently bad because murder ends your life and burglary often has you at risk of being assaulted or having your property/belongings stolen. that stuff IS inherently painful no matter what society you live in. having your penis simply touched is NOT inherently traumatic. how does somebody touching you there traumatize you naturally? where is the proof of that that a mere touch can ruin your life? this whole idea that sex crimes are the worst crimes only exists because since biblical times, we've viewed sex as the most intimate thing one can have because sex was seen as evil throughout history and something only done for making babies, and if you did anything sexual without for making babies, you were labeled "evil". that's the only reason even the most mild sex crime is seen as worse than murder. also, no she isn't traumatized because what he did is inherently traumatic. again, if she was molested by him in a society where we aren't taught what's traumatic and what's right/wrong, she wouldn't be traumatized. she'd look back, think he was weird, and move on. if fondling was naturally traumatic, it'd traumatize people in ALL societies which it doesn't. if sex with a teen naturally traumatized them, then we would've easily seen it in the old days which we didn't. this protest against underage marriage didn't start until people like elizabeth oakes smith started protesting it in the mid-1800s because she believed women should have education first before marriage and whatnot and she influenced by the environment where society began to infantilize teenagers. if teens were always traumatized by marrying an older guy, teen marriage wouldn't already ended back in ancient greece or even before that, which it didn't.

also, no we never observed how immature teenagers are. again, this temperance movement was made because of christian beliefs, and so they decided to raise the drinking age very high as a compromise. child labor laws were made because people didn't give a 10 year old the right job. a 17 year old man can easily handle any job. if he can handle war, he can handle factories too. 18 is just a randomly chosen number. also, studies in the article i sent you show that in other societies researchers observed, they saw NO immaturity among teenagers and noticed how immaturity among teens in these socieities only starterd when they began to be influenced by western culture.

Trust me, if we didn't treat teenagers like children, they'd be way more mature. i know for this for a fact. i mean, nowadays even 22 year olds act like kids while a long time ago they got married and had children and had their own house. it's nurture NOT nature. i wanna see real proof that the age difference causes the trauma and not society's reaction. there are people even 100 years ago who got married with an age gap like 15 and 25 and the 15 year old foid wasn't even traumatized because it was allowed back then while today she'd claim to be traumatized.
Holy fuck based. Sex crimes are traumatic because society infantilizes foids and they start acting neurotic and operate on emotion and their lizard brains because of this infantilization.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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Holy fuck based. Sex crimes are traumatic because society infantilizes foids and they start acting neurotic and operate on emotion and their lizard brains because of this infantilization.
exactly. i don't see how someone being older than you is traumatic
 
FrothySolutions

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false. laws taking away teenagers' adults rights didn't exist until the 1800s arrived and these laws became MUCH more common in the late 20th century. also, burglary and murder is inherently bad because murder ends your life and burglary often has you at risk of being assaulted or having your property/belongings stolen. that stuff IS inherently painful no matter what society you live in. having your penis simply touched is NOT inherently traumatic. how does somebody touching you there traumatize you naturally? where is the proof of that that a mere touch can ruin your life? this whole idea that sex crimes are the worst crimes only exists because since biblical times, we've viewed sex as the most intimate thing one can have because sex was seen as evil throughout history and something only done for making babies, and if you did anything sexual without for making babies, you were labeled "evil". that's the only reason even the most mild sex crime is seen as worse than murder. also, no she isn't traumatized because what he did is inherently traumatic. again, if she was molested by him in a society where we aren't taught what's traumatic and what's right/wrong, she wouldn't be traumatized. she'd look back, think he was weird, and move on. if fondling was naturally traumatic, it'd traumatize people in ALL societies which it doesn't. if sex with a teen naturally traumatized them, then we would've easily seen it in the old days which we didn't. this protest against underage marriage didn't start until people like elizabeth oakes smith started protesting it in the mid-1800s because she believed women should have education first before marriage and whatnot and she influenced by the environment where society began to infantilize teenagers. if teens were always traumatized by marrying an older guy, teen marriage wouldn't already ended back in ancient greece or even before that, which it didn't.

also, no we never observed how immature teenagers are. again, this temperance movement was made because of christian beliefs, and so they decided to raise the drinking age very high as a compromise. child labor laws were made because people didn't give a 10 year old the right job. a 17 year old man can easily handle any job. if he can handle war, he can handle factories too. 18 is just a randomly chosen number. also, studies in the article i sent you show that in other societies researchers observed, they saw NO immaturity among teenagers and noticed how immaturity among teens in these socieities only starterd when they began to be influenced by western culture.

Trust me, if we didn't treat teenagers like children, they'd be way more mature. i know for this for a fact. i mean, nowadays even 22 year olds act like kids while a long time ago they got married and had children and had their own house. it's nurture NOT nature. i wanna see real proof that the age difference causes the trauma and not society's reaction. there are people even 100 years ago who got married with an age gap like 15 and 25 and the 15 year old foid wasn't even traumatized because it was allowed back then while today she'd claim to be traumatized.
We've been differentiating between children and adults since well before the 1800s. Boy czar Peter the Great is just one example. He was czar at 10. But because it would be stupid to let a 10 year old rule, his mother ruled as regent. Children and adults are not the same, a child's freedoms and an adult's freedoms are not the same, and we've known it for hundreds of years, if not thousands.

And is it inherently wrong to take someone's life? Why is life sacred? Is it inherently wrong to take someone's stuff? Why is someone's stuff sacred? Why can't people just get over it?

And you're missing the point about Slaughter. The problem wasn't just the molestation. She was emotionally dependent on him. That was why she shouldn't have been with him. That was the evidence of why kids shouldn't be allowed to enter into adult relationships. Molestation is bad on its own, molestation can happen at any age and is bad regardless of age. But as far as the question of "Why don't we let kids date adults," it's because children, even the freest most emancipated children, are impulsive and stupid and needy. Emotionally immature. Like Slaughter was.
 
Edmund_Kemper

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We've been differentiating between children and adults since well before the 1800s. Boy czar Peter the Great is just one example. He was czar at 10. But because it would be stupid to let a 10 year old rule, his mother ruled as regent. Children and adults are not the same, a child's freedoms and an adult's freedoms are not the same, and we've known it for hundreds of years, if not thousands.

And is it inherently wrong to take someone's life? Why is life sacred? Is it inherently wrong to take someone's stuff? Why is someone's stuff sacred? Why can't people just get over it?

And you're missing the point about Slaughter. The problem wasn't just the molestation. She was emotionally dependent on him. That was why she shouldn't have been with him. That was the evidence of why kids shouldn't be allowed to enter into adult relationships. Molestation is bad on its own, molestation can happen at any age and is bad regardless of age. But as far as the question of "Why don't we let kids date adults," it's because children, even the freest most emancipated children, are impulsive and stupid and needy. Emotionally immature. Like Slaughter was.
first of all, youre talking about 10 year olds not some 17 year old. second, i saw a graph on how laws restricting teen rights didn't exist until the 1800s look up case against adolescence by robert epstein in the book it shows that chart. the drinking age used to be extremely low in colonial times and the smoking age used to be 16 in the late 1800s. a 10 yr old russian kid would never get to reign today, so clearly even a 10 year old despite being super young was still allowed more responsibilities than even an 18 year old today.

also, murder is inherently wrong because most people want to stay alive and you're taking away their right to live which they all completely desire, and many people will mourn them because they established friendships with them. murder has always been seen as evil no matter what society. stealing isn't considered evil but is still considered wrong because the person likes their belongings and wants to keep them so you are taking away what they like and want. in every society, murder/stealing is bad. but not all societies viewed fondling as bad nor did they view teen marriage as bad. this just shows that in any society, murder will harm people because people inherently want to live and want to keep their belongings. people don't inherently feel damaged by fondling or teen marriage. if that was true, people in ancient greece would be traumatized by marrying a 30 year old man at 14 and the practice would've been instantly gone. trust me, if dahvie vanity and jessi slaughter's age difference was accepted, she wouldn't be traumatized. she wouldn't be depressed, traumatized, damaged, etc. at all. this isn't saying their age difference is ok but it isn't supposed to inherently traumatize you. and trust me, if i time traveled to ancient greece and was psychic i'd find NO trauma is teen brides. people here had grandparents with age differences and the grandma was maybe under 18 was never traumatized while nowadays she would be. i'm sure in the 50s, white foids who dated black guys would later claim to be "traumatized" by it
 
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