Discussion Judge: Alek Minassian was not an incel, simply sought fame, is guilty

[PPEcel]

So today, Justice Anne Molloy found Minassian guilty for murdering 10 normies and the attempted murder of another 16.

The full 69-page ruling can be read here. Much of it is a discussion of the jurisprudence surrounding autism, mental disorders, and criminal responsibility (as AM's lawyers tried to use his autism as a defence), but here's where the analysis of AM's motivations get interesting:

Nevertheless, I am inclined to accept the assessment of all of the experts that [Minassian] did lie to the police about much of the incel motivation he talked about and that the incel movement was not in fact a primary driving force behind the attack. I note as well that [Minassian]’s father commented that when his son was talking to Det. Thomas, he was using the tone of voice and demeanour that he would use when doing a presentation, as if he was acting a part.

I am confident that [Minassian] started fantasizing about school shootings and mass murders from the time he was in high school. He has a wealth of knowledge about those kinds of killings and the people who carry them out. From the details he knows, it is also clear that he has spent considerable time on chatrooms and other internet sites devoted to mass murders and incel followers. He is clearly fascinated by, and to a degree obsessed with, Elliot Rodger and his manifesto. However, [Minassian] shows none of the venom typical of incel followers. Although frustrated and disappointed that women did not appear to be interested in him, he has never expressed hatred, or even anger, towards women, not even in his initial statement to the police. Likewise, he did not at the time, and has not since, shown any pleasure or sense of satisfaction to have killed or injured women, apart from the notoriety it has brought to him. Accordingly, I agree with the assessors that [Minassian]’s story to the police about the attack being an “incel rebellion” was a lie.

I am drawn to the conclusion that there was no one clear motivator. [Minassian] was profoundly lonely and felt hopeless. He saw nothing in his future but failure, both in social relationships and work. He wanted to be seen. He wanted to be known, and talked about. He saw no way to accomplish that except through a spectacular act of violence. He had been musing about mass murder for years, to varying degrees. Convinced that he was about to fail in his first real job and live a life of obscurity and dependence, he decided instead to achieve fame and notoriety even if it meant dying in the process. I am sure that resentment towards women who were never interested him was a factor in this attack, but not the driving force. Instead, as he told every assessor, he piggybacked on the incel movement to ratchet up his own notoriety.

Why did he do it? There is a long answer. There were multiple factors at play as I have described above, as well as the impact of his ASD, and possibly desensitization as a result of the depraved internet sites he frequented. But there is also a short answer, a bottom line: he did it to become famous.

It is for this reason that Molloy decided to refer to Minassian as "John Doe" in her judgement.

Ultimately, she determined that Minassian was intellectually capable of knowing that murder was legally and morally wrong, and that he was able to rationally evaluate what he was doing, thereby making him criminally responsible.

Dr. Bradford obtained similar information from [Minassian]. [Minassian] told Dr. Bradford that “to kill is extremely immoral” and that his actions would “be seen as morally terrible by anybody in the community.”

[Minassian] has repeatedly told everyone he spoke to that he knew his actions constituted first-degree murder and also that he knew what he had done would be condemned by everyone in society, with the possible exception of some fringe groups on the internet. He described the social norm that killing is wrong as an “ingrained” pillar that he had learned from his family and at school. He variously referred to his attack as “devastating,” “despicable,” “shocking,” “morally terrible,” “a horrible thing,” and “irredeemable.” He said that he knew these acts were morally wrong.

He chose to commit the crimes anyway, because it was what he really wanted to do. This was the exercise of free will by a rational brain, capable of choosing between right and wrong. He freely chose the option that was morally wrong, knowing what the consequences would be for himself, and for everybody else. It does not matter that he does not have remorse, nor empathize with the victims. Lack of empathy for the suffering of victims, even an incapacity to empathize for whatever reason, does not constitute a defence under s. 16 of the Criminal Code.

 

[trying to ascend]

Guy was literally an bald ethnic aspie, how tf this judge says he is not incel? Does he think incel means misoginistic?

 

[PPEcel]

Guy was literally an bald ethnic aspie, how tf this judge says he is not incel? Does he think incel means misoginistic?

She doesn't think he was misogynist enough for inceldom (i.e. sex, or the lack thereof) to be the primary motivator for the attack.

 

[Atavistic Autist]

I came to this conclusion myself long ago:

As an autist, I can tell that he's being semi-ironic, and wanting attention as a sort of lolcow.

Alek is basically being a jestER in this interview, in my professional opinion.

 

[Deleted member 27161]

Guy was literally an bald ethnic aspie, how tf this judge says he is not incel? Does he think incel means misoginistic?

Incel in society's definition is someone that hates women. So basically they didn't think he showed enough hatred of women to be considered incel.

 

[ThoughtfulCel]

Incel in society's definition is someone that hates women. So basically they didn't think he showed enough hatred of women to be considered incel.

To be fair I extremely hate women

 

[Deleted member 27249]

Any news on the sentence? is it life?

 

[Deleted member 27161]

To be fair I extremely hate women

Same.

Any news on the sentence? is it life?

March 18 I believe. Might be a date later than that.

 

[souljeroflove]

I came to this conclusion myself long ago:

So you think he was just posing as an incel?

 

[trying to ascend]

She doesn't think he was misogynist enough for inceldom (i.e. sex, or the lack thereof) to be the primary motivator for the attack.

Then he should say: Even though he is incel, the motivations of the attack have nothing to do with his state of involutary celibacy. Instead of saying he wasn't incel

Incel in society's definition is someone that hates women. So basically they didn't think he showed enough hatred of women to be considered incel.

Tbh

 

[souljeroflove]

Same.

March 18 I believe. Might be a date later than that.

Guy is going to locked up forever. High price for fame...

Any news on the sentence? is it life?

Pretty sure if you're found guilty of murder its automatic life sentence. Based off my googling...

 

[Atavistic Autist]

So you think he was just posing as an incel?

No because he was doubtlessly anathema to women and sexless as an autist, but the stated motivations behind his attack were largely affected and his police interview proves that autists can very well get so defeated by life that their entire identity is reduced to an ironic/sarcastic facade.

 

[PPEcel]

Any news on the sentence? is it life?

The minimum is life with a parole ineligibility period of 25 years, though the judge has to option to stack those 25 years in cases of multiple murder

Then he should say: Even though he is incel, the motivations of the attack have nothing to do with his state of involutary celibacy. Instead of saying he wasn't incel

Tbh

The judge never explicitly made that conclusion, I inferred it from her analysis.

 

[souljeroflove]

Interesting...there's a lot going on there.

 

[RREEEEEEEEE]

That's a smart judge right there.

 

[Deleted member 22572]

I came to this conclusion myself long ago:

What did you mean by jester

 

[Atavistic Autist]

What did you mean by jester

Acting ridiculous in order to elicit attention. You see this same dynamic displayed with Shoenice:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioLTDFevo2I

 

[Deleted member 22572]

He should be punished for killing those innocent ppl but ye he wasn't an incel. By definition he was an incel cuz he was a virgin but it's obvious he either misinterpreted the 4chan memes about incels or he did it for fame or both.

 

[Indari]

Knew it

 

[Deleted member 21230]

I'd say this is the best scenario for us

 

[Deleted member 33216]

> uses incel lingo
> identifies as an incel
> looks like an incel (and has autism)
> Judge: "He Is NoT an InCel"

Anyone with half a brain can see that AM is a typical incel, but a qualified judge somehow overlooked that. jfl. It looks like they just wanted to throw him in jail.

 

[erenyeager]

Guy was literally an bald ethnic aspie, how tf this judge says he is not incel? Does he think incel means misoginistic?

Kill the judge for crimes against intelligence in Minecraft

 

[based_meme]

View attachment 418743

> uses incel lingo
> identifies as an incel
> looks like an incel (and has autism)
> Judge: "He Is NoT an InCel"

Anyone with half a brain can see that AM is a typical incel, but a qualified judge somehow overlooked that. jfl. It looks like they just wanted to throw him in jail.

Any blue pilled cuck can use the lingo. You could spend a couple of days on a new forum and pick up lingo. That's not what makes you incel.

Neither does "identifying as incel." What the fuck does that mean? Incel isn't a Goddamn identity, it's a state of being.

>Joined: Satur-

 

[Deleted member 33216]

Any blue pilled cuck can use the lingo. You could spend a couple of days on a new forum and pick up lingo. That's not what makes you incel.

Neither does "identifying as incel." What the fuck does that mean? Incel isn't a Goddamn identity, it's a state of being.

>Joined: Satur-

Yes a blue pilled cuck can use the lingo, but they do it ironically. AM was using it in the interrogation. Identifying as an incel means that you publicly proclaim you're an incel. A thing normies would never do. Being incel is a life condition, I agree. However, not every man who's involuntary celibate goes out and says he's an incel. AM did.

Also, tbh I don't see how my joining date is relevant. I was reluctant to join because I didn't want the glow niggers on my ass. But now that I am a neet with no job to lose, I joined. I've been posting on r9k about incel stuff for years.

Guy was literally an bald ethnic aspie, how tf this judge says he is not incel? Does he think incel means misoginistic?

To normies, yes. If you look up the word incel, you'll get that (according to Urban dictionary):

Member of online comunity called incels
Self delusional,egoistic pretends to be a nice guy
Blames others for his deprivation of sex or romantic relationship
Often has stereotypes for others
A person who is unable to find romantic partner or thinks is deprived of sex by other guys called CHAD

So for the normtards incel is associated with certain behaviors and ideologies. They don't acknowledge that our society is inherently lookist.

 

[tulasdanslos]

Identifying as an incel means that you publicly proclaim you're an incel.

Nobody does this, not even incels. This is retarded. You should feel bad for being retarded.

 

[Deleted member 33216]

Nobody does this, not even incels. This is retarded. You should feel bad for being retarded.

if you're autistic you might. I think AM main defense was that he's on the spectrum.

Also there's a few incel channels with people who show their faces (you just need to be autistic enough to do it). You just need to be someone with nothing to lose. But here's a few off the top of my head:
1. Steven B
2. Grotesque
3. Brendio

You should feel bad for being retarded.

I'm beyond feeling bad about myself.

 

[Rambocel]

Guy is going to locked up forever. High price for fame...

Pretty sure if you're found guilty of murder its automatic life sentence. Based off my googling...

Life in Canada is 25 years. He could even get out before that. This is his one and only criminal case.

 

[Deleted member 27204]

Knew it

I'd say this is the best scenario for us

Any blue pilled cuck can use the lingo. You could spend a couple of days on a new forum and pick up lingo. That's not what makes you incel.

Neither does "identifying as incel." What the fuck does that mean? Incel isn't a Goddamn identity, it's a state of being.

People that still want to insist AM was an incel after this ruling are suspect tbh
The narrative of AM being an incel is one that the media, redditors and anti-incels overall spent so much time constructing but now it's in the public record that AM wasn't an incel but was looking to latch onto some cause that would draw attention to him.

 

[Rambocel]

People that still want to insist AM was an incel after this ruling are suspect tbh
The narrative of AM being an incel is one that the media, redditors and anti-incels overall spent so much time constructing but now it's in the public record that AM wasn't an incel but was looking to latch onto some cause that would draw attention to him.

Court rulings mean jack shit compared to what really happened

 

[Deleted member 27204]

Court rulings mean jack shit compared to what really happened

What really happened though is that AM latched onto whatever cause would get him notoriety

tbh he was just latching on to anything that was edgy. He had no idea what he was getting himself into by associating with incels and thought that blaming his attack on being inspired by incels instead of insecurities about his career was somehow a better idea (which shows how little he knew about incels or how they were viewed by society to start with).

In the 1980s he would have been more likely to be some killer professing beliefs in satanic sacrifices. In the 2000s he might have claimed allegiance to some Islamic terrorist group. In the 2010s he latched onto edgy culture surrounding school shooters and online blackpilled incel culture.

 

[Detro]

However, [Minassian] shows none of the venom typical of incel followers

Holy shit imagine going ER and your incel motivations being dismissed because you're not a frothing at the mouth reddit stereotype of an incel.
The absolute ignorance and disdain normalfags have for incels is unreal.

 

[based_meme]

Holy shit imagine going ER and your incel motivations being dismissed because you're not a frothing at the mouth reddit stereotype of an incel.
The absolute ignorance and disdain normalfags have for incels is unreal.

That was rage fuel. This demented motherfucker with autism kills almost a dozen of your citizens and tries to kill a dozen more, you're charging him with a life sentence, and you don't even bother to understand the source behind his supposed motivations?

Again, incels get handwaved away and compartmentalized into something they understand in a simplistic framework and want to get rid of, like far-right white extremism. Far easier than actually facing the problem of the growing numbers of disenfranchised males in the society you support, being disenfranchised by the society you support. Nobody wants to admit that gynocentrism in society is the root of so many problems, much of which incels are the recipients.

We're already fucked in society and already living in the mouse utopia. Nobody is seeing it happen, but it's right there in front of their very own eyes. The ones who do see it aren't speaking up, because their careers, votes, reputations and funding donations are on the line. When the normies start pushing back they'll feel their grip slipping and things will be visibly crumbling and impossible to ignore. Then everybody will start talking about it, but it'll be too late by then.

Let it boil over and destroy society. We need that reset.

 

[Deleted member 17811]

Alek Minassian's actions were a response to his treatment by society. It is heart warming to know that society will be stuck with the bill for his upkeep. The Saint must be laughing at the wagecuck taxpayers as they finance his imprisonment

 

[Golden Blue]

I remember that time, people thought this forum was going get shut down.

 

[partycat]

Did anyone see the stream of the trial, it has been made private on YouTube

 

[starcrapoo]

Damn must be brutal living in Canada. Seems like the average white person there is a chad-lite or stacy-lite.
But Canadians are noticeably a lot nicer than Americans and I hear some white Canadian foids actually date ethnic males sometimes. Whereas it is completely unheard of in places like SF.

This guy Minassian wouldn't have lasted very long in SF rofl. The foids here are entitled, hostile, degenerate, and proud of it. Literally. They are fuckin hostile to non-Black ethnic males for no reason and I fuckin mean it.

Dude was a very Central Asian looking mofo with a uni-brow in a white Anglo country. Not completely over like it is for Indian and Asian men but still subhuman to most white foids (and the degenerate ethnic foids who emulate white foids).

I think Minassian could eventually have gotten a low-mid tier fob noodle, ethnic brown, or black female.

It seems like the only ones who snap are white foid / stacy worshippers.

As for me, absolutely hell no with white foids. Its not like I can un-see what I've seen. Theyre fuckin degenerate and enjoy being selfish narcissist. Lazy shallow worthless fucks that just wanna do leisurely activities and travel.

No civilization could ever last with them.

Too degenerate, selfish, and entitled. Spoiled.

The race whose foids are most unlike what I've just described and are kept mostly in check, the stronger that race is.

 

[Deleted member 27204]

Damn must be brutal living in Canada. Seems like the average white person there is a chad-lite or stacy-lite.
But Canadians are noticeably a lot nicer than Americans and I hear some white Canadian foids actually date ethnic males sometimes. Whereas it is completely unheard of in places like SF.

No it sucks way more in Canada. The only places where ethnic males have had less of a hard time is in places like Vancouver.
Women from the prairie provinces and Toronto area are just as bad as in America if not worse.

This guy Minassian wouldn't have lasted very long in SF rofl. The foids here are entitled, hostile, degenerate, and proud of it. Literally. They are fuckin hostile to non-Black ethnic males for no reason and I fuckin mean it.

That's true in Canada too.

Dude was a very Central Asian looking mofo with a uni-brow in a white Anglo country. Not completely over like it is for Indian and Asian men but still subhuman to most white foids (and the degenerate ethnic foids who emulate white foids).

I think Minassian could eventually have gotten a low-mid tier fob noodle, ethnic brown, or black female.

It seems like the only ones who snap are white foid / stacy worshippers.

Wrong. The idea that guys that snap are obsessed with stacies is a way to make sexually frustrated guys look racist and exclusionary of anything except 10/10 white supermodels. Where do you hear that stereotype and lie from again?

As for me, absolutely hell no with white foids. Its not like I can un-see what I've seen. Theyre fuckin degenerate and enjoy being selfish narcissist. Lazy shallow worthless fucks that just wanna do leisurely activities and travel.

No civilization could ever last with them.

Too degenerate, selfish, and entitled. Spoiled.

All of what you said easily applies to other women too. It's just in to hate on white women at least compared to ethnic and black women so it's perceived that it's mainly white women that are degenerate and selfish narcissists @RREEEEEEEEE @Cafecel

 

[Deleted member 236]

Men can't use Autism as a mitigating factor in crimes but women can use shit like PTSD, postpartum depression and unproven abuse allegations to mitigate their crimes.

 

[ilieknothing]

It was a foid judge, he should be able to call it a mistrial.

 

[Neggr]

To be fair I extremely hate women

 

[Rambocel]

What really happened though is that AM latched onto whatever cause would get him notoriety

I seriously doubt that. If that were the case why would he pick quite actually the worst possible group to gain notoriety and infamy through? Why not some wacko Muslim faction or something where there are enough active crazy people to rally behind him?

Also he was a severe autist and by all definitions an incel. He was also discharged from the army which is another huge blow from society to him. Nothing looked promising to him. Even though his shitty wallet attempt at suicide by cop sucked, he still did it and repeated the gesture. If that that cop wasn't exceptionally chill and well-oriented and/or this was Burgerland he would have went down in a hail of gunfire. You could easily argue he didn't know what the ramifications of his actions were (even though he sperged about it anyway) based on wanting to die if that's how you choose to view suicide.

Court stuff is all bullshit. Nobody really knows what anyone is thinking. It's all doublespeak as well. Truth and justice don't matter. It's just someone's opinion in the end dressed up like it's impartial. You could argue either way and make it sound just as credible.

 

[agingmentalcel]

Guy was literally an bald ethnic aspie, how tf this judge says he is not incel? Does he think incel means misoginistic?

There are wannabe gatekeepers here who think that literally being incel (lifeling involuntary celibacy) is not enough to belong and there is some cultural litmus "true Scotsman" test for being a real incel. Certain social beliefs are expected in that assessment. So why would it be surprising that mainstream normies also have additional qualifiers in their incel judgments.

 

[based_meme]

You know things will be hard in 2021 when a foid judge rules that AM was not an Incel because she didn't feel like he hated women enough.

To be fair I always suspect all "shootings" as being FBI/CIA false flags.

The media vomits all kinds of lies, misinformation and deconstructions about Incels.

Putting AM case aside, that kind of "ruling" smells bad. I mean, a foid judge whore will decide who is an Incel and who is not?

They will get to pick and choose, based on the media lies and fake steriotypes, who is "legally Incel" and who is just a fake?

That is absurd.

Yes, absolutely absurd. It's like psychiatrists arbitrarily deciding who is and isn't insane and ordering you locked up in a straightjacket. They're labeling us as terrorists and what have you, and then deciding who is and who isn't a terrorist based on their own interpretation aka feelings.

Clown world keeps honking, and we haven't seen the worst of it.

 

[Deleted member 27204]

I seriously doubt that. If that were the case why would he pick quite actually the worst possible group to gain notoriety and infamy through? Why not some wacko Muslim faction or something where there are enough active crazy people to rally behind him?

Because extremist Muslims are no longer the dominant threat narrative and it's all about low status males that turn to vaguely defined extremism and lone wolf attacks.

Also he was a severe autist and by all definitions an incel. He was also discharged from the army which is another huge blow from society to him. Nothing looked promising to him. Even though his shitty wallet attempt at suicide by cop sucked, he still did it and repeated the gesture. If that that cop wasn't exceptionally chill and well-oriented and/or this was Burgerland he would have went down in a hail of gunfire. You could easily argue he didn't know what the ramifications of his actions were (even though he sperged about it anyway) based on wanting to die if that's how you choose to view suicide.

Court stuff is all bullshit. Nobody really knows what anyone is thinking. It's all doublespeak as well. Truth and justice don't matter. It's just someone's opinion in the end dressed up like it's impartial. You could argue either way and make it sound just as credible.

But if he was called an incel for his actions it would set the precedent that every mass shooter or person that killed and injured people in acts of public violence would be labeled an incel. So in this way the ruling is good.

Also his motive was not inceldom as shown by how AM later retracted what he said about his anger against women and explained that it stemmed more from work problems. There are even studies that the main motive for mass shootings isn't commonly misogyny either.

https://incels.is/threads/mysoginy-isnt-a-common-motive-for-mass-shootings-at-all.276946/

(Credit @ThisLifeKillsMe)

So while AM might have been an incel in looks that doesn't mean what he did should be classified as motivated by his inceldom.
Otherwise that just means any incel that acts up or does something bad (however major or minor and however society deems it) can be charged with "misogynistic extremism" no matter the context.

 

[Rambocel]

Because extremist Muslims are no longer the dominant threat narrative and it's all about low status males that turn to vaguely defined extremism and lone wolf attacks.

But if he was called an incel for his actions it would set the precedent that every mass shooter or person that killed and injured people in acts of public violence would be labeled an incel. So in this way the ruling is good.

Also his motive was not inceldom as shown by how AM later retracted what he said about his anger against women and explained that it stemmed more from work problems. There are even studies that the main motive for mass shootings isn't commonly misogyny either.

https://incels.is/threads/mysoginy-isnt-a-common-motive-for-mass-shootings-at-all.276946/

(Credit @ThisLifeKillsMe)

So while AM might have been an incel in looks that doesn't mean what he did should be classified as motivated by his inceldom.
Otherwise that just means any incel that acts up or does something bad (however major or minor and however society deems it) can be charged with "misogynistic extremism" no matter the context.

Granted that is true that it would be more bad press. But let's be real. The world already hates incels and they already have a solidified bad rap. People already associate incels with him regardless of what some (foid to boot) judge thinks.

He doesn't strike me as someone who would do this for attention of any sort. He's already dealt with all kinds of negative attention his whole life. And then you could say either way that it was an act of desperation or some shit. Just seems really odd to align with a group like this which he clearly does share so much in common with. To me he looks like a deranged autist doing something a deranged autist would do and getting attention from normies who will hate him seems like a side-effect.

 

[Deleted member 27204]

Granted that is true that it would be more bad press. But let's be real. The world already hates incels and they already have a solidified bad rap. People already associate incels with him regardless of what some (foid to boot) judge thinks.

True but the precedent this ruling sets is better than an alternative outcome where it was decided that because the attacker referenced incels on fb then it would follow his attack was motivated by inceldom.

He doesn't strike me as someone who would do this for attention of any sort. He's already dealt with all kinds of negative attention his whole life. And then you could say either way that it was an act of desperation or some shit. Just seems really odd to align with a group like this which he clearly does share so much in common with. To me he looks like a deranged autist doing something a deranged autist would do and getting attention from normies who will hate him seems like a side-effect.

Outcast average to below average looking males that have experienced negative attention and/or ostracism their whole life does fit with an incel group but I doubt he knew he had that much in common with incels imo.

Probably to him speaking the way he did about an "incel rebellion" and chads and stacies was what he thought would make him seem like an incel. Like many others he probably thought incel was the way you act and talk rather than a state of being. He never mentioned anything about the blackpill either in his initial fb post. Seems more like a cry for attention from him by latching onto controversial groups than anything else tbh

 

[Incline]

So today, Justice Anne Molloy found Minassian guilty for murdering 10 normies and the attempted murder of another 16.

The full 69-page ruling can be read here. Much of it is a discussion of the jurisprudence surrounding autism, mental disorders, and criminal responsibility (as AM's lawyers tried to use his autism as a defence), but here's where the analysis of AM's motivations get interesting:






It is for this reason that Molloy decided to refer to Minassian as "John Doe" in her judgement.

Ultimately, she determined that Minassian was intellectually capable of knowing that murder was legally and morally wrong, and that he was able to rationally evaluate what he was doing, thereby making him criminally responsible.

Lets send him letters

 

[Deleted member 1983]

canada seems like by far the worst country to be incel in

 

[watcher]

He was obviously incel.

Hating women is not what makes you an incel, like the holes and simps want you to think. Being incel is a physical trait: being unattractive, ignored and hated by women, not the other way around. There are many incels who are simps and like or even worship women.

Hating women or not does not change whether you are incel or not, this is some low IQ logic.

There is a constant effort by both women and simps to paint incels as "men who could get laid but can't because they hate women" bullshit and I expected more from the users of this forum than to fall for this propaganda.

Guy was literally an bald ethnic aspie, how tf this judge says he is not incel? Does he think incel means misoginistic?

Yes, that's exactly the dumb logic that the judge is using

 

[RREEEEEEEEE]

All of what you said easily applies to other women too. It's just in to hate on white women at least compared to ethnic and black women so it's perceived that it's mainly white women that are degenerate and selfish narcissists @RREEEEEEEEE @Cafecel

Yeah, if he thinks it's just white women then he doesn't know what he is talking about. Ethnic femorrhoids (including black ones) are giga degenerates. It's not a race thing.